| Author | Message | ||
     Ferris |
Aaron, i'm here! effin-a, dude, that's about the most impressive dyno chart i've ever seen!!! (and i'm reasonably certain i can tell when the bottle was uncorked.........)  have been keeping pretty quiet, wondering when i'd need to fess up, now is the time it seems: nope, can't do Bonneville this year. thought i could at first, but reality is reality, and it's not in my cards. will be rootin' you guys and gals on from afar, tho, and also watching with great interest to see what kinda international incident Rocket's gonna create parading around the salt in his Victoria's Secret attire  FB | ||
| Blake |
 .  . . . . .  You'll be missed. . . . .  NOT! nyaa-nyaa-naa, you can't go. Yer afraid ain't ya. | ||
| Aaron |
I was afraid of that when I noticed your silence on the subject. All work and no play makes Ferris a dull boy, y'know! Blake, me thinks you're seriously underestimating how much power it takes to go 200 at Bonneville. Here's a hint: I haven't posted a dyno sheet that shows enough power. Even on nitrous. | ||
| Madduck |
Aaron, I thought power just spins the wheel. My understanding is that when the weight of the air your pushing exceeds your available traction you quit going faster. How are you getting all that hp to make mph??? or is that still a secret. Paul | ||
| Aaron |
Paul, you're right, but it's not an all or nothing proposition. Wheelspin losses increase with aerodynamic drag, which increases with the square of the speed increase. | ||
| Grizzlyb |
Aaron, What is the difference in wheelspin on salt compared to tar, on speeds like that? And are there companies that specialize in tires for these salt conditions? Grizzly | ||
| Aaron |
Griz, I don't have any data for wheelspin on pavement, but I gotta believe it's substantially less. Nobody makes any Z rated knobbys that I know of! | ||
| Madduck |
Aaron, The dirt track tires we are using on the xr's have to be shaved 50% just to let us run 140 mph. I would guess that they are nominally rated for 125 sustained. They routinely run at 140 + on the mile tracks. I have been trying to figure out how to use a small gps unit with speedo to get an idea of how much spin we're getting. Wonder if anyone has such a device?? It would be a hoot to watch slippage number and shoud be doable with todays electronics. Paul | ||
| Blake |
Aaron, I know what you are saying, wheelspin is a big factor right? And power required is proportional to V3. Not much more you can do about the air speed governed power requirement part short of a streamliner rig, but you might think some more about the wheelspin part. I keep wondering about your decision to use the stretched swingarm with the stock unit on standby. Just some thinking out loud... More traction and power spent in actually propelling the bike vesus thowing salt will mean more usable power right? Stock swingarm, soft compound racing slick in back, and a tire warmer. You of course know this but are concerned about high speed stability. Consider that very lightweight superbikes are doing near 200 mph on tracks at/near sea level. They are not using stretched swingarms nor lowering their suspensions to do so. So the risk of your lowered 200+ mph aerodynamically faired S2RR being upset by the air at Bonneville altitude is minimal. As you well know drag bikes commonly use stretched swingarms to reduce the tendancy of their bikes to wheelie under violent acceleration on a VERY sticky surface while riding on VERY sticky tires. I'm positive that you'll be far better off starting out with the stock swingarm. Save the stretched one for the 1/4 mile. | ||
| Sparky |
Full leathers in 130 Club. Does that mean $$$ racing suit or street gear like a Harley leather jacket zipped to Vanson pants? Aerostich Roadcrafter allowable? Sparky (probably 2-patch questions but just asking anyhow) | ||
| Madduck |
Blake, I think your on the wrong track. Think of it more like a flat hill climb. Take a look at those hill climing bikes. You spin and spin till you hook up. The tire is sort of a clutch in that its spinning allows you to get the motor into the right rpm range for max power while the tire fights for traction. Without the extended wheelbase you have no stability. Not that any of these things are real stable as we street riders know it. I rode a 74" indian (1951 vintage) up a practice hill once. More exciting than cliff diving and 10 times as dangerous. Paul | ||
| Blake |
CHEAP discontinued leathers available here. Sizes run in even increments from 40 through 50, but I only saw one that was still available in a size 50 (my size). I picked up one of the one piece AGV Rage suits back in May for only $270 (half price). It's fully armored (removable dual density armor), lined and perforated and comes complete with knee sliders (PLEASE do NOT wear your knee sliders on the salt  , Team Elves has an image to maintain. ). I am VERY happy with the suit. It already saved my hide (literally) once. FYI, I'm 6'-3" 210 LB and the size 50 fits me well. Any taller though and the boys would be in a pinch. | ||
| Blake |
Paul, Naw, a hill climb is just a drag race in rough and rugged dirt up a STEEP hill. Point taken, but that's a huge stretch compared to running for top speed on hard packed salt, and I can't accept the analogy. The more a tire spins the more power will be lost. The salt is pretty smooth (compared to a hill climb), and the acceleration in the long course that Aaron's S2RR will be running will give Richard plenty of time to get it up to speed for the timed mile. But in practicality, I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Aaron does (know what HE is talking about) . I'm just offering my off the top of my head thoughts for him to consider. | ||
| Rattler |
Ole wheelspin... know that animal real well. Aaron, in right conditions, the present HP would be close. I was spinning at 7200-7300 RPM last year in Sept, then came October & that beautiful dried out salt where the most we turned was 6400-6500 RPM with near the same HP. When I look back on that, if I had that 30 tooth in Sept, the record might have fell then. Speeds jumped from 135 MPH to 145 MPH on most runs. FYI, what I've seen on some programs usually shows 2-3% tire slippage on asphalt/concrete. Can't say that's a fact though. Do you know the Cd area of the front of the new bike? I know as you know that at 200 MPH, it almost takes a HP for each MPH of speed. Your streamlining can sure help a little. Good numbers so far BTW on the race bike! Dale A. | ||
| Davegess |
Blake, the car cars have the luxury of adding a lot of weight to counter wheel spin. the roadsters are perhaps the ones who take farthest. the have terrible stramlining, a short wheel base, and lots of HP. The all seem to be running water tanks over the rear axle so they can add weight. It is not unusual to hear the split times for a roadster as "first mile 130, second mile 140, spin out" I don't think weight could be hung off a bike in any meaningful way, we will have to rely on the aerodynamics of the RR bodywork to do the job. | ||
| Blake |
There ya go Dave! A long swingarm AND and some ballast. The best of both worlds. Aaron, got lead? | ||
| Aaron |
Well, there's more to the story of course. First off, and I may be wrong here, but I don't think the wheelspin loss is significant from a hp required point of view. The energy lost is the heat generated by the slippage and the tossing of the salt rooster tail, right? It ain't gonna be that much. But, you most certainly have to be concerned with it when figuring out your gearing. Unfortunately, it's a variable that changes even day to day, as we saw last year. I'm saying that based on the conditions we've had the last two years, even just scaling hp required as speed increase cubed, I have yet to post a dyno sheet that shows enough power to go 200. But man, conditions is a huge wildcard. Give you an example ... Joe Amo went to Speedweek last year with his Kawasaki 1000, and after 10 years of trying, he *finally* managed to break 200 (lots of nitrous in that baby). He went back in October for the World Finals, where we had the most incredible conditions you can imagine ... cool temps, calm winds, and salt like asphalt. He ran 223 with no changes to the bike. So what I'm saying is that this whole hp required thing can move all over the place. With respect to the swingarm, that's a judgement call. I made the call mainly because of some things Richard told me about how the bike was handling. Richard's safety is of paramount concern to me. Keep in mind that this fairing was never designed for 200mph. Yeah, they did a bunch of wind tunnel work, but they weren't concerning themselves with lift at 200. And lift it does. The lift basically comes from the fact that the nose of the bike is higher than the rear axle. I've lowered it as much as I can on this bike, without going to a 16" front wheel which is a whole 'nother can of worms. Take a good look at the nose of a 'busa sometime. Yeah, it may be fractionally less slippery than the RR, but it's designed for speed. The RR's nose was designed for XR750's back in the early 70's! BTW ... Joe Amo's swingarm is lengthened 10" if memory serves. 6" ain't gonna wipe out our chances. | ||
| Aaron |
Weight slows you down! | ||
| Denisea |
Aaron: Last I heard FB was in possession of new tyres so betting all work, no play is not something we have to worry about. Ride report(s) Ferris? | ||
| Grizzlyb |
Aaron, The salt conditions is not a factor we can do something about, so the tire remains. What tires are you using? Pete,
1.5 kg to go  . Grizz | ||
| Ferris |
geez Blake, you know your life is complete when you've been flipped off by an emoti-finger! Aaron, all work and no money (in spite of all work) makes Ferris a POOR boy. Denise, had a MARVELOUS ride up to Three Rivers and back this weekend, scoped out the giant Sequoias up at Balch Park yesterday on the way back, very cool (literally, 72 degrees). re: the new tires ("tyres"? where are you from???), am loving Dunlop's new D220's, very sticky considering their mission in life, nice to run tires that aren't toast at 2,000 miles. ride to lean, FB  | ||
| Aaron |
Griz, I have a couple different sets of Dunlops, 204's and 207's. Not rated for over 200 but nothing is available that is, near as I can tell. Know of any? | ||
| Grizzlyb |
Aaron, I'll look in to it. Tire size is the same as on the M2? Griz | ||
| Davegess |
200 MPH Aaron is right, of course but the what the heck lets all give him lots of thoughts even though most of us, myself included, have almost no idea what we are talking about Lift, yes I suspect that Richard is gonna be real busy as he approaches that speed. This months issue of Road and Truck has a nice story on the huge speed jumps that happened in car racing in the late sizites and early seventies. The author says that one year blasting down the Mulsanne straight at LeMans, in the close compnay of several other Porsche's and Ferrari's, he looked over at ,I think, Pedro Rodrequiz who was furiosly working his steering wheel and having little or no effect on the direction of the car. Pedro had a pretty intense look on his face as you mihgt expect from someone going 200 mph with no steering. These cars all had lift problems, sometimes to the point of actually taking off and flying for hundreds of feet before "landing" I am sure Aaron and Richard are taking this venture seriously. Tis is not a walk in the park by any means and requires lots of things besides HP. | ||
| X1glider |
Knobbies? Is there something I should know about before I run the 130 club? I'm running Dunlop GT501s. As far as I know, those speed ratings are for sustained speeds. I had my old H rated tires at 120mph briefy (stupidly probably) and they didn't come off the rim. What do these guys with streamliners do, like Fueling? Are they using beadlocks or putting sheetmetal screws in the side of the rim to keep the tires from slipping. Houstons local drag racers, Johnny Mancuso and Steve Strodeur are using the sheetmetal screw method to keep their Mickey Ts on. | ||
| Roc |
Seems to me like a longer swingarm would make the bike more stable and more aerodynamic, but I am new to this. So how fast would someone with just a bit of common sense want to go with stock S2 bodywork? Maybe a big flaw for me? Please let me know the thoughts of your collective wisdom, I will be selecting gearing between 167 and 185 MPH this week. | ||
| Aaron |
Dave, you got it. Lift at 200 is not something to take lightly, and it's dangerous as hell. We're playing with fire here, and I don't want Richard getting hurt. The SOB is fearless, somebody has to think about his safety. Bob: as I understand it, it's not so much slippage on the rim, it's the construction of the tire that can fail. For Joe Amo, they've been letting him race on a ZR tire but they have him inspect it immediately after each run. They say it's important to check it before it cools down, for bubbling. Rocky: I can pretty much guarantee it'll have some lift at speed. But how fast it can safely go, I dunno, never raced one. Remember, it's the height difference between the nose and rear axle that causes lift. Think lower. It's dangerous to lower the front much more than the back, though, you're taking out rake. Lower both ends (the rear axle stays in the same place regardless). | ||
| Fssnoc2501 |
Here Goes, I finally got some pics of the Sidecar Blast, The sidecar needs a few minor adjustments and cleaning-up, but it's close. We are also working on constructing the fender. The bike feels strong, but I bet Aaron will be able to make it stronger. I,ve emailed Henrick with a Bio and pics for the Team Elves site.   Ray | ||
| Java |
Someone help me out on this 200 mph thing, 'cause I'm an LSR idiot. I know the MotoGP guys can get upwards of 180 nowadays, but from what I understand, due to a bikes poor aero.s, the difference between that and 200 should take a ton of power. One of the British magazines run a "200 Club" contest every year on some deserted runway somewhere. Most guys run modified Hayabusas. Even running the most aerodynamic (and ugliest) bike available, I don't remember anyone ever breaking 200 mph with less than about 240 hp. Again, I'm way out of my element here, I'm just looking to be cured of my abysmal ignorance. | ||
| Aaron |
Ray: looks great! can't wait to get it on the dyno. Java: you're on the right track! Way too many people tend to assume this is much easier than it is. After all, we went over 180 on 1000cc, right? 200 on 1650cc ought to be cake! But it doesn't work that way. It's a whole ton harder to go 200 than 180. It takes 37% more power in fact. That's a big bunch of power on something that's already making 150hp or more. To say nothing of the effect of the wind on stability and lift. |
