| Author | Message | ||
     Tempest766 |
Anyone ever experiment with a larger capacity battery than the typical XT-14 220cca AGM? Looks like the next larger one is th XT-16 with 330cca. Of course it's bigger and begs the question about placement, as well as whether the stock VR or even the FH020AA is right for it. Starter on the Uly is sluggish and I have no motivation to disassemble enough to replace it | ||
| Froggy |
Given the lack of room, I don't think any larger batteries would work, even if you cut the battery tray. One thing I've done in the past is ran a lithium battery in parallel, which did help give it more starting power. I stored the battery in the storage space, and connected the battery terminals. The battery I used was made by Speedcell, which came with several inches of wire with eyelets instead of traditional terminals, but you should be able to just make jumpers between two batteries with something thick like 8 gauge wire. In terms of the VR, it won't notice the difference, if anything the VR will be a little happier as having more battery to charge means less being shunted off as heat. | ||
| Tempest766 |
interesting. thanks | ||
| Teeps |
Don't know about a larger battery. Like The stock size battery is a net fit. My '06 Ulysses always struggled on cold starts. This even with a new battery and kept on a battery tender when the bike was parked. What I started doing was reversing the engine against compression, then press the starter. This gives the starter a little head start before encountering 600cc of compressive force... Once the engine was warm it cranks right up regardless of crankshaft position. (Message edited by teeps on March 15, 2019) | ||
| Tempest766 |
gonna start a new thread, but anyone ever try the Lithium battery as a primary? Bosch M-LiIon series is available here locally with 240cca and super lightweight. I'm concerned about charging though. They go through a detailed discussion about requiring a specific charger for the things when tending/fast-charging, but they make absolutely no mention of the motorcycle charging system and what it is doing to the battery while the engine is running. How is the bike's internal charging system any different from the typical lead-acid battery tender? | ||
| Tempest766 |
Actually, I think I answered my own question with an article I read online. Seems that single phase stator of XT 2008 and up is not suitable for charging a lithium battery due to the low frequency AC signal. Article says damage will occur to the lithium battery with extended use. https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-charging-system s-use-lithium-batteries | ||
| Tempest766 |
Re Teeps - Yeah, the ETX14 in the Uly seems dismally undersized for the application. Will try your reverse compression, but I do need a new battery and am disappointed with what is available locally. Don't even mention online...it's an old argument and I'm not gonna go there. So what specifically are you doing to take the pressure off of the starter? What's your procedure? | ||
| Arry |
Is anyone using the most current lithium batteries? Have they ironed out any of the problems, of lithiums, of a few years ago? Do they provide better starting current? | ||
| Arry |
By the time I posted, Tempest is also asking about lithiums. I have an '07 (3phase), so I'd still be interested in experiences with lithiums. | ||
| Tempest766 |
Here's an interesting option. Nearly 50% higher CCA than the typical ETX14, but yeah, you pay for it. https://www.impactbattery.com/braille-b14115-advan ced-agm-ytx14-bs-upgrade.html | ||
| Froggy |
Well for what it is worth, the bike I ran the Lithium on is an 06 so three phase. I'd not heard that issue about using it on single phase before, but those guys know their stuff so I'd trust it. Before I ran the dual batteries, I was running just the lithium. I ended up switching to the dual because of cold temperature performance, I ride year round in upstate NY and leaving work at 9PM in late September through early April often resulted in struggles trying to start, having to "warm up" the battery. Batteries have gotten better so they can pack more juice into the same package, so it isn't as much of an issue these days. The EBRs came with lithium batteries stock. | ||
| Froggy |
Not a huge difference in price vs buying a Harley(Deka) battery ($120 if I remember right). If they aren't lying on their spec sheet and it fits, then that seems like a good deal. | ||
| Tootal |
I went with a larger Odyssey battery but you have to modify your battery box. Took about 3 hours and a few beers. Here's a link if you're interested: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/397081.html | ||
| Tempest766 |
Seems like if I'm willing to mod the box then there are several battery options. I don't think chancing Lithium is a good idea. Too uncertain about what the Uly charging system would do to it, and don't want to buy a Li specific tender. So, lead-acid AGM is what it's gonna be. I think the 220cca 12ah rating should be a minimum on the Uly. The Uly is just too big for anything smaller. Looks like East Penn Battery is the OEM for a lot of the rebranded ETX14 ones. Even the Braille 14115 330cca racing battery is purported to be an East Penn with a significant markup. Speaking of Braille, there is some attraction to 330cca and a 15ah capacity, especially if you've been dealing with questionable starting and low voltage warnings for a while. Looks like it is in-stock if I want to drive to Ohio. Will make a spot decision in the morning. | ||
| Smorris |
with no mods i used GYZ16H in the 06 xb12x | ||
| Teeps |
Tempest, I shift to 1st gear then roll the bike backwards until it stops. Bump it back against compression a couple of times. Then shift to neutral then press the button. After doing this, the engine usually cranks over without hesitation. Again I only do this when the bike has cold soaked overnight. When the engine was fully warmed he cranked right over. | ||
| Mark_weiss |
No problems with a Shorai lithium battery. Yes, in colder temperatures, below 40F, the engine initially cranks slowly, but that's it. Charging is not an issue either. | ||
| Tempest766 |
No problems with a Shorai lithium battery. Yes, in colder temperatures, below 40F, the engine initially cranks slowly, but that's it. Charging is not an issue either. But you don't mention what year your bike is. Substantial differences in the 08 and 09 bikes from previous years. Online technical journal indicates that single phase stators (like in later years) will damage lithium batteries. I ended up just buying a 220ca EastPenn AGM at Walmart for 80 bucks. | ||
| Ourdee |
So....,I will air my dirty laundry. I am interested in gaining all the thoughts on it. I have two new 6 volt 4 Ah batteries. I just installed a new DEKA 12 volt 14 Ah battery in Lil Red. My plans are to place the two 6 volt batteries in the air box. I will wire them in series to get 12 volts. I will then wire them with a switch in parallel with the DEKA. The main purpose of the two 6 volt batteries will be to power a small microwave unit, micro processor, and transmitter/receiver to a two way pager. It will also allow a boost for starting. Thoughts? | ||
| Shoggin |
With all those electronics in the airbox, wear tinfoil underwear?  | ||
| Shoggin |
"Online technical journal indicates that single phase stators (like in later years) will damage lithium batteries. " Care to elaborate for the plebs, please? | ||
| Mark_weiss |
My Ulysses is a 2008. It has a single phase alternator. The battery went in Dec 2014. (Message edited by Mark_weiss on March 17, 2019) | ||
| Ourdee |
Wouldn't it be nice to have an unshielded microwave between a bike thieves legs and a remote to it in your hand?  | ||
| Ourdee |
The battery went in Dec 2014. Glass mat or lithium? | ||
| Tempest766 |
@Ourdee -- Something about that configuration bothers my sensibilities. Too complex. To elaborate any more would spawn a discussion/debate that I'm not totally qualified to get into. Just suffice it to say that batter chemistry is a complex field that you really need to study well to understand. @Shoggin -- See web link above to reference the article discussing charging of lithium batteries. (Posted on Friday, March 15, 2019 - 04:27 pm). The short of it was that the low frequency AC of a single phase stator is bad for charging of lithium batteries. It says that prolonged use will cause overheating and plating issues on the lithium batteries. @Mark_weiss -- YMMV. Just repeating what I read...and stating that it gives me cause for concern over using Lithium in my 2008 Uly. Brand new Wallymart EverStart 220ca installed and it turned right over today, with temp below 40f. After the ride, the battery voltage read 13+volts. The thing that concerns me now is that the fan runs ultra-fast while riding (IDS racing ECM). Wondered if that could be related to a failing VR (again), but after the ride I checked voltage across battery with engine RPM tacked up and was holding steady at 14.4V. | ||
| Ourdee |
configuration bothers my sensibilities. Too complex. To elaborate any more would spawn a discussion/debate I shouldn't mention the NOCO GB40 that I planned on splicing in then. Lil Red acts like it was hit with a defibrillator with that 1,000 amp iteration. | ||
| Tootal |
In my post above I noticed it was in Sept. 2008. Evidently that battery lasted till March 24th, 2012. So 4 1/2 years. So then this thread comes up and I charge my battery and went up and installed it in the Uly and clickety clack!! It finally did start, barely, and I rode it home from storage. I checked my grounds and they were at .1 ohms. No problem there. I hooked up the voltage meter and it was showing 12.93 volts. I hit the starter it pulled all the way down to 7 volts while it clicked. It did finally catch and start but since I'm heading out in a couple of weeks I think it's time for a new one. I did some research and found I bought the existing battery in March of 2012 and now it's March of 2019, so 7 years this time!! Considering batteries used to last a year to 2 years that's not bad!! They even advertise that they are designed for 7 years and this one made it! So I'm not too depressed knowing I have to spend some money, it seems it was well worth it. | ||
| Mark_weiss |
" Just repeating what I read...and stating that it gives me cause for concern over using Lithium in my 2008 Uly. " Then what about all of our lithium batteried devices that we charge at home? House current is single phase and I would be surprised to find out that the wall chargers contain phase converters prior to the rectifier. At last year's AIM Expo in Las Vegas I met with representatives from Anti-Gravity batteries and from Shorai and discussed the suitability of using their products in vintage motorcycles. Charging voltage below 14v was noted as a concern, but neither company said anything about single-phase power. | ||
| Tempest766 |
Then what about all of our lithium batteried devices that we charge at home? House current is single phase and I would be surprised to find out that the wall chargers contain phase converters prior to the rectifier. Well, I didn't/don't want to get into a heavy tech debate, but I think a couple of points are worth mentioning. First point is that wall dongles don't really need to "convert phase". It flips the negative side of the AC signal to the positive side so the output is essentially pulsed DC at that point. Then capacitors are used to turn that pulsed DC into a DC with "ripple". The damaging component of this that carries over to many different applications (not just charging) is how tolerant the electronics being powered are to that voltage ripple. The reference I read simply stated that the lithium cells are damaged by long term exposure to the pulsed DC where the ripple voltage change is large and low frequency (the kind generated by the 2008 Uly stator). Now the part I'm not sure of, that may make this whole discussion moot, is what the output of the Uly VR looks like on an O-scope. How much is the VR stabilizing the output signal? IOW, is it simply outputting pulsed DC with very large ripple, or is it holding a relatively flat 14.4V throughout the cycle? Without measuring on a scope, I don't know...and even if a new VR is relatively consistent, as one begins to fail, is that more likely to damage a lithium battery unit? I would hypothesize that the typical motorcycle VR does NOT guarantee a flat (no ripple) output because that is a more expensive component AND the lead-acid battery itself works as a large capacitor to filter the ripple (to some extent). We also need to make sure terminology is consistent. There are lithium battery cells and there are lithium battery units. A battery unit contains one or more cells and a BMS or battery management system. That BMS is responsible for making sure that the cells are balanced during discharge because they work very differently from typical lead-acid cells and if they don't discharge evenly then the unit is toast. The BMS may also govern charging, but here is my point of contention. UNLESS THE DOCUMENTATION FOR THE PRODUCT SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT THE BMS MANAGES CHARGING YOU SHOULD USE ONLY A CHARGER SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR THE LITHIUM BATTERY IN QUESTION. I have not gotten an adequate answer from available product documentation for me to believe that the Uly charging system is long-term safe for the product I looked at (Bosch M-LiIon). As far as product reps go: my opinion is that they are trying to sell product and don't trust what they have to say without real documentation to back it up. As I say, YMMV. | ||
| Ourdee |
My reason for switching the two 6v batt.s are to only use it during starting and recharging right after start up. Then switch it off. I'll be able to run the alarm system with out draining the main battery. The main battery will take the lion share of the recharging by being in the primary position for current. Hopefully the sixes will catch enough juice. If not, I will manually balance them with the schuemacker maintainer when I get home. I'll just add a second pigtail to the system. My question at this point is this, The 6v 4 Ah batteries use a 15 amp fuse when running individually. By running them in series should I fuse them for 30 amps? |
