| Author | Message | ||
     Dan_m |
I have to say that i'm beginning to be very frustrated because i'm dealing with too many issues in such little time, this bike is playing with my patience. Firstly i have to specify that only on cold starts, usually i have to help the engine with a light touch of throttle for ~10 seconds, if not doing so usually the engine will stall within 3-5 seconds. So this was my standard procedure for cold starts, i know it is not normal for a FI engine, but i've read here that others are dealing with same issue. Ok, yesterday morning (it was 9 degree Celsius) when i pressed the starter button, the engine fired as usually at first crank, but because i didn't help with some throttle, it stalled within 3 seconds. At second attempt, after the engine started i helped it by holding the throttle constant at ~2000rpm, but in less then 10 seconds, the engine stalled (although i was holding the throttle). At third attempt, it was clear to me that the engine will not start. I did two or three more attempts to start, but no luck. What i did so far: - removed spark plugs, spray with some brake cleaner, reinstall, try again to start the engine, no luck; - check the ignition fuse - fuse ok; - fuel pump primes normally; - check for sparks - this is where i don't know if something is wrong. Starting with front cylinder, touching the spark plug against the cylinder head, after a few attempts i was able to see some sparks, the color of the spark was yellow). Secondly, for the rear cylinder, i managed to tear the wire when i removed it for second time (metallic female connector remained attached to spark plug tip). I reattached the female connector to the wire and test for spark at rear cylinder, by touching the spark plug against central tie bar - i did not see not a single spark. I pulled front cylinder spark plug wire and attached to rear, again no spark. - maybe it is a false impression, but i think that now when i press the starter button, the engine cranks very easily, same as if the spark plugs were removed. I want to add that since my engine rebuild that was detailed in the other topic, i did ~1500 km with not a single issue until yesterday morning. What do you think i should check further? Thanks | ||
| Dan_m |
A picture with front spark plug, when removed first time:  | ||
| Hughlysses |
- maybe it is a false impression, but i think that now when i press the starter button, the engine cranks very easily, same as if the spark plugs were removed. That's pretty weird. Do you have a compression gauge so that you could check the compression? I'm just wondering if something weird happened with your new lifters so that they have "pumped up" and are holding the valves slightly off the seats. It does seem very odd that the engine ran well for that long and all of a sudden has an issue. | ||
| Njloco |
http://www.ntxtools.com/network-tool-warehouse/OTC -6589.html Should you need it. Sounds like you might have more than on issue going on. If you don't have a compression tester, cover the plug hole with your finger and crank it over to see if your finger gets pushed away from the hole. If you have compression, switch the coils around and see if you have spark and if it Changed. (Message edited by njloco on September 27, 2016) | ||
| Teeps |
That's not the correct spark plug for a Ulysses. The center electrode should be a fine wire. https://www.ngk.de/en/products-technologies/spark-plugs/spark-plug-technologies/precious-metal-spark-plugs/  | ||
| Hughlysses |
Teeps- that's a photo of an iridium spark plug, which many of us use. The factory plugs in the Uly are conventional and many people use those without issues. | ||
| Teeps |
I was sure irridium plugs came out of my bike... originally. Appears I'm wrong; so I stand corrected. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Before doing a whole lot of work you might do yourself a favor by just installing two brand new properly gapped spark plugs. If you are a throttle blipper the plugs can get fouled and the bike will not run. Either way, first thing is to just change the plugs and then see if it starts. | ||
| Dan_m |
Thanks all for replies! @Electraglider_1997: i was thinking to same approach, i will buy today two new spark plugs and try again to start. But i also have to do something with the spark plug wire that i managed to tear, because i checked with a multimeter the resistance and it is not within specs (according to service manual). Buying a new original wire is out of discussion because i have to wait to much time | ||
| Brother_in_buells |
You could buy some make to fit plug wires! Some have done that before. | ||
| Mark_weiss |
What year is your Uly? If a 2008 or later, it is possible that the idle air controller is not working. Maybe unplugged? The IAC creates the fast idle for warmup and the ECU automatically provides the correct amount of fuel. Opening the throttle adds the TPS reading to the data and results in excess fuel being provided. | ||
| Tootal |
Mark is right. We need to know the year in order to help. I checked your profile but it's not listed. If it's an 06 or 07 then try new plugs and raise your idle just a little. There is a sweet spot where it will start when the temps gets cooler yet it's not so high that it causes the idle to stick around 2000 rpm and drop slowly. In 2008 it's a whole different animal. | ||
| Hughlysses |
It's a 2009; see earlier thread: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/787172.html?1465484096 He just had to replace the lifters and do other work. | ||
| Tootal |
Thanks Hugh, guess I wasn't adding 2+2! | ||
| Dan_m |
Today i bought two new spark plugs (NGK DCPR8E) and i managed to modify a spark plug wire from a Chevrolet Spark (cut the wire to same length as original and switching metallic connector from ignition coil side). Before installing the new spark plugs, i checked again for sparks, and i think this is the issue that i'm dealing with: intermittent spark. I think so, because after a few good attempts i was able to see some sparks, this time the color was blue. Any thoughts what can cause this? I must add that i checked the groundings from the back of the headlight and near the battery and everything was ok. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Any thoughts what can cause this? My thought would be faulty ignition coil, faulty ignition pickup (located on the front of the crankcase) although either of those would most likely show up with a hot engine, or bad wiring or connection to either of those components. Could be a faulty ECM as well. Since you just rotated the engine down and back up, I'd go over all the connections and wires carefully to make sure all plugs are properly seated and that you didn't inadvertently break or pinch a wire during the process. | ||
| Steveford |
What does the front plug do? The routing up there is really tight and you have to get the plug lead rotated just right or else the insulation will get worn through. When that happens the spark will ground to the frame, it's real easy to see at night with the airbox removed. | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
After checking the ACI for dirt and function. Take a look at all the intake manifold connections. Make sure no leaks or loose bolts holding it to the heads was a very common problem in the Harley world. Also don't give it a quick look. Take your time. There could be a hairline crack from a casting flaw or over tightening a fastener. Your plugs look fouled and that means it's loading up with fuel to compensate for a vac leak to stay running. You are in open loop when cold, so the O 2 sensor can't tell the ECM what's going on. At what RPM does your bike stay at before it stalls and can you rev it when it's running? | ||
| Dan_m |
Thanks everyone for replies! @Mark_weiss, Hugie03flhr: for the part with the engine stalling at cold starts, i also blamed IAC valve, TPS sensor, or an intake leak. I replaced intake seals with James seals when i did the engine rebuild job. Also recently, before my issue with engine not starting, i removed the IAC valve and cleaned it. After reinstall, at first engine start i did notice an improvement - the engine did't stalled, and also idle was more smooth. But, the issue that i'm dealing now is that the engine is not starting due to the fact that there is an intermittent spark. To be more specific, it was something like this: 1. with fuel pump disconnected: - front spark plug touching cylinder head bolt, crank the engine - no spark; - move to rear spark plug, touching it on center tie bar bolt - no spark; 2. With fuel pump connected (i was thinking maybe the ecm will not send signal to ignition coil, because it's not detecting the fuel pump) - check front spark plug - no spark; - check rear spark plug - no spark; - remove rear spark plug, insert an allen wrench in the place of spark plug, crank the engine and slowly approaching with the allen wrench against center tie bar bolt, i see blue color spark for the first time. At this time i was thinking maybe there is something wrong with the spark plug, or it was not installed correctly; - install again rear spark plug, press starter button and i see spark (blue color). At that moment it did't crossed my mind to to look at front spark plug, while still holding the starter button pressed. - move to front spark plug, crank the engine - no spark; - check again rear spark plug - no spark. At this time the battery was starting to give up; - remove battery from Aprilia, install to Buell, crank the engine a few times - no spark at rear or front spark plug. @Steveford: i think if there was a problem with front plug wire, i should definitely see something to the other spark plug. So for now, all i can do, as Hughlysses is suggesting, is to check again the wires and connections. Other thing to add is that all this attempts to search for spark, were done with IAT sensor removed, because upon removal of air box base plate, i disconnected only the sensor connector. Thus, the CEL was flashing on the dash. Today i will test again with IAT sensor attached, and if CEL continues to flash i will try to see what codes are displaying. | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
That is very strange having an intermittent spark. To be sure, I would buy one of those spark testers with the light that flashes when the spark is detected. Or put a meter on the coil to see if it's receiving the sensor signal. If the signal is reaching the coil, then it's the coil, wire or plug. If it's not reaching the coil. We have to work the other way and find out why there's no signal. | ||
| Steveford |
If you have one kicking around you could use a timing light to see when it's sparking. No flash, no spark. Somewhere along the line I replaced both the coil and leads on my Useless when it was giving me grief. | ||
| Dan_m |
This afternoon i checked again the wires and connections, everything is ok. Still no spark. The BIG problem now that i discovered is that the impression that i wrote in first post (that it seems to me that the engine is cranking very easily) actually it is true. If i cover rear cylinder spark plug hole with my finger, i feel absolutely no compression. If i move the finger half of inch further i feel as the air is blowing through the hole. As Hughlysses was saying at the beginning of the topic, rear cylinder valves are slightly off seats. I simply cannot find any explanation how it was possible that this occurred at ~1500 km after the engine rebuild job. Unfortunately i don't think i have the energy and patience to tear down the engine again. For now i am thinking either to part the bike, or try to sell it here for a low price... | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Fuuu! Do you think it inhaled something? | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
That's not good at all! You should be feeling your finger pop off that spark plug hole while cranking. Time to use your camera phone to take a picture down that whole. How about the front cylinder? | ||
| Steveford |
Sorry to hear that. Maybe make it sit in a corner for a while while you recharge your own batteries by riding something else for a bit? It sounds like something is amiss with your lifters and/or pushrods - cheap repair, labor intensive. | ||
| Dan_m |
@Hugie03flhr: i think front cylinder is good because i feel that my finger is pushed away from the spark plug hole while cranking. @Steveford: if i will decide to tear down the engine again, my biggest concern is that maybe i will not be able to find what went wrong with the lifters (if this issue is related to them), thus when i will reassemble the engine i will not trust the bike. Of course, maybe this issue is related to a bend valve, or damaged valve seat, although i did not heard any strange sound at engine, in that morning. | ||
| Steveford |
This kind of reminds me a bit of my first 02 X1. Harley was kind enough to leave the oil passageways full of metal chips. I finally found the problem by removing the oil pressure relief valve and blowing compressed air in there - a huge blob of oily metal chips came gushing out when I removed the air nozzle. You had a big blob of sealant in your oil pump. I wonder if you don't have more of it in there clogging up the works. Just a thought. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Damn Dan, this issue must be contagious. I haven't cranked my Uly in about 10 days. Weather is finally cooling off a little here, so I thought I'd ride to work in the morning. I checked the tire pressures, and pushed the bike around to the driveway so I can just get on and ride in the morning. As an afterthought, I thought "I'll just crank it up and let it run for a minute." Key on, fuel pump whirs, hit the starter button. It turns over, and over, and over. Not so much as a cough or sputter. I cycle the kill switch and ignition switch a couple of times, and try again. Still no fire. Well crap- push the bike back onto the back patio and reconnect the battery tender. No ride tomorrow. Guess I'll have to do some troubleshooting. The bike's been sitting uncovered for a few weeks since we recently demolished the added-on carport while our roof was being replaced. Maybe water got into something while it was sitting?  | ||
| Dan_m |
Sorry to hear that Hughlysses. Please post here if you manage to find what is wrong with your bike. As for me, i decided to tear down the engine again, hopefully i will discover what went wrong this time. Judging that the bike ran well up to that morning, and the fact that i dind't heard any strange sound at last engine startup, chances are that i'm dealing with lifters issue again, but this time exactly opposite compared to first issue (now it seems that there is too much oil pressure in lifters, thus valves are not fully seated). | ||
| Ourdee |
Way too good a bike to give up on it. |
