| Author | Message | ||
     Hjhickey |
I need help please! When your bike is completely cold, on the side stand, where is the oil level on the dip stick? (2008 or newer Uly) I know the procedure for checking the oil is to warm it up & then put it on the side stand, but recently my Uly has developed a mystery issue that the dealership can't solve. It was discovered during a routine oil change - We warmed up the bike for 10 minutes by riding it, drained the oil, changed the filter, added 2.5 quarts of oil, test rode for 10 min. No oil on the dip stick!(scary!) Added 1/2 quart, test ride - then pulled the dipstick to find foamy oil puking out onto the garage floor (the extra 1/2 quart was overfill). Ultimately we drained it again, put on a new oil filter (thinking it may be defective), added 2.5 quarts of oil, went for a 10 minute test ride, & found no oil on the dip stick after 10 minutes. The oil was not returning for some reason. It was still under warranty through April so we took it in. The dealership has had it for almost 2 months. They have told me it was fixed 3 times. The first time, the oil was barely on the dip stick, even warm. - they claimed there was no issue, so they didn't fix anything.... I left it with them. The second time they put a Harley filter & Harley oil in it & said it was fixed. They believed I had 2 bad filters in a row. They pulled the bike around for me to take it home & the oil was foamy & puked out - they finally agreed there was an issue. The mechanic said he put exactly 2.5 quarts of oil in it & it had been fine until now. But - now they see the problem & they would work on fixing it. Yesterday when I went to get it for the 3rd time, they had replaced the PCV valve, saying that was causing the issue. I checked the oil level before starting it & there wasn't any showing on the dipstick, but after a 10 minute ride, it was in the normal range. I have had the bike since it was brand new in '09. It has always had oil on the dipstick when cold, then the level rises once it is warm. Now, it doesn't show any oil on the stick when cold. The bike has over 50,000 miles on it. We own 5 Buells. The others all have SOME oil on the dip stick when checked cold, like his one used to. Thanks for the help! (Message edited by HJHickey on May 18, 2016) (Message edited by HJHickey on May 18, 2016) | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I've noticed a lot of variation in my 2008. A lot has to do with the inside of the swingarm being a bizarre shape. If I load my bike down like for a long trip, it acts like it's running out of oil. Another thing I noticed is that I put exactly 2.5 quarts in for an oil change, take it for a quick spin and the oil will be fine. Take it for a longer ride, like 25 miles, and half seems to go somewhere. I add the last half of the bottle and it seems happy there. It seems like mine is eating the half quart but it's still in there! My X1 and old sportster don't do this crap! This oddness with the oil hasn't killed the engine yet at over 50,000 miles though. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The best way to check the oil on the 2008-up bikes is with the engine hot, RUNNING, and on the side stand with the handle bars straight. The 2008-up bikes will dump the oil to the engine sump when they're shut off, and it happens very quickly on some of them. If your bike has the right amount of oil, it should show near the middle of the dip stick when checked like this. The procedure is NOT by the book, but it works. | ||
| Froggy |
Actually that is basically what they started putting in the manual starting with the 2010s. One of the quirks of the 2008+ oil system, the older bikes don't do it. | ||
| Buellerxt |
You two guys, Hugh and Froggy, are invaluable Uly assets. Thank you. | ||
| Rwven |
If you can see oil on the dipstick when it's cold you are OK. Otherwise, what Hugh said. | ||
| Tootal |
Correct me if I'm wrong but on my 06 the oil return dumps right onto the dipstick. Taking a reading while running will always look good. I pull the stick while running and wipe it off then shut the engine off and screw it in to take the reading. | ||
| Buelet |
Does anyone have a screenshot or working link for the 2010 Owner's Manual for the Uly that has the revised oil check procedure for reference? This is my wife's bike and the cold VS hot oil check on it has always been consistent to w/in 1/4" - 1/2" or so, which is why we became alarmed. (Just like my '06 Uly, and other 2 XB's.) Wondering what changed to make the oil decide to go live in the engine sump after shutdown, instead of staying in the swing arm as it'd done for the previous 50k+ miles... Thanks for the replies! | ||
| Teeps |
Buelet Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2016 - Wondering what changed to make the oil decide to go live in the engine sump after shutdown, instead of staying in the swing arm as it'd done for the previous 50k+ miles... The reed valve is leaking part number 23.  | ||
| Buelet |
Tom, I do believe you're probably right! I'd studied the shop manual to dissect the oil pump / path, looking for some sort of check valve and didn't see anything and hadn't thought to look at the case diagram. Can't wait to get home and open my manual again.... and how lucky that it's probably a really cheap part!  Now to see if we can convince the dealership to split the case and replace it. (And while many have reported this is normal operation, we've had a lot of foaming since this started giving exceedingly high level indications as well. While the dealership maintains that "air in the oil" is normal and ok, I don't think air lubricates very well while the system is in the process of normalizing... Thanks so much!! | ||
| Hootowl |
Air in the oil is normal. The scavenge side of the pump moves more than the supply side so that the case never fills up with oil. A byproduct of this is that the scavenge side pumps air too. The bubbles float to the top in the oil tank, and the pump draws from the bottom, so your supply oil should be relatively bubble free. It's just the returning oil that's bubbly. | ||
| Hootowl |
"Correct me if I'm wrong but on my 06 the oil return dumps right onto the dipstick" If I read what Froggy said correctly, this should only be done with 2008+ models. | ||
| Buelet |
The air in the oil that I'm talking about is to the point of froth. As in there are 2.5 quarts of fresh oil and a new filter, and flip a coin to see if the dipstick is going to show oil in the normal range (hot check) with normal viscosity & misc air bubbles, or if the dipstick will come out looking like the oil came out of one of those soap dispensers that pump out light frothy soap, with the level being 1/4-1/2" over the max fill line. | ||
| Hootowl |
I know. First time I looked in the oil tank on my X1 right after I shut it off, I had the same reaction: Whoa, that can't be right. But there's oil underneath the foam. | ||
| Hjhickey |
Hootowl - Some bubbles are normal. If I had a better wifi connection I would upload a video I took of the oil. Imagine a caramel colored frappachino & overflowing. It changes from black with normal bubbles, to a pale brown that has the foamy consistency of whipped egg yolks. Thanks for all the feedback! This has been super frustrating & we have a trip planned in June. I need my bike! We should ride 7,000 miles if all goes well. Not feeling overly confident with my bike at the moment.... | ||
| Froggy |
Here is the exact wording from the 2010 manual, I copy pasted it into a post years ago, back when Harley had the manuals online for public consumption.
Unfortunately I never backed up the pictures, so I'll see if I can dig them up elsewhere. | ||
| Buelet |
We'll have to compare dipsticks sometime, lol. Maybe you have the same issue as we do.  It's just that in the past 7 years of ownership, this wasn't normal for this bike. (Along with the widely variable oil level indication.) My money is on a faulty reed valve above as mentioned above, which would normally keep the oil from being drawn back into the crankcase after the bike is shut down and cools. (Same reason I followed someone else's advice on here earlier and drilled a couple of small holes in my rear wheel hub, so the cooling wheel doesn't draw moisture into the hub from the atmosphere or otherwise, into the hub cavity.) Appreciate the brainstorming & responses! | ||
| Hootowl |
"to a pale brown that has the foamy consistency of whipped egg yolks" If it were a water cooled engine, I'd say you have a head gasket leak. Is there any way you could have gotten water in your oil? Condensation maybe? Do you make a lot of short trips? | ||
| Buelet |
Thanks so much for posting that, Froggy! Although something has changed on this bike from the way it was for the past 50k+ miles, I'll be curious to try this method of checking the oil on it when we go to pick it up from the dealership tomorrow or Saturday. And while it's H I G H L Y unlikely that the dealership will be willing to tear the engine down to replace the reed valve, that does seem to be the most logical explanation I've heard. I'm wondering if an Amsoil (or similar) motor-flush additive might clean the valve up so that it works properly again... Or if I could blow air through it to dislodge something that's causing it to stick open? Hmm.... (While realizing that most would just say to accept it and move on.) We'll keep you posted of how it turns out and what we end up doing or trying. | ||
| Buelet |
Hootowl - Definitely not water. Even the dealership who keeps echoing the air in the oil is normal, which it is (to a point), agreed the time before last when we went to pick it up, that there was a problem. I've had plenty of water in my fluids from our Jeeping experience and this definitely isn't it. We got water into the transmission via the clutch cable on her '03 Lightning way back in '05 or something. Makes a nice looking creamy milkshake of the oil/trans fluid. This isn't creamy. It's foamy. | ||
| Hootowl |
"We got water into the transmission via the clutch cable" I dumped water down the vent tube when I was washing with the seat removed. What a mess. What kind of oil is it? Maybe some oils foam more than others due to different detergent levels? Grasping at straws. | ||
| Buelet |
UPDATE & Recap: So here's what has transpired since the last post about the oil level / oil foaming or aerating (intermittent) issue after the dealership had it for 62 days after we dropped it off to be fixed. Initially, they replaced our WIX filter with a HD/Buell filter and said it was fixed. Oddly enough, that didn't fix it. Next they replaced a worn out PCV valve... and said that fixed it. Each time we'd go to pick it up it either didn't show any oil on the dipstick or it was SUPER foamy after a 10-15 min test ride before signing the invoice and taking it home, so we'd leave it there and they'd have it for another couple weeks before we'd hear from them again claiming that it was fixed and ready to go. Ultimately, they stood behind the statement that many here have echoed here, in that you cannot obtain an accurate (or even a remote ballpark as it turns out) oil level reading unless the oil is at full operating temperature. It was apparently inconsequential that we've always been able to check the oil on this bike whether hot or cold, since mile 0 when we bought from them new in '09. And now with over 50k miles on it, it suddenly no longer behaves like it used to, along with the super foamy oil which further exasperates the issue. So, after making the 4th trip to the dealership to pick up the bike after being in for diagnosis for this issue, we reluctantly signed the invoice and paid our $50 ESP deductible and after first letting the bike warm up on the side stand (per their request), then checking the oil, and taking it for a 10 min test ride. The oil level checked fine on that test ride, whereas it had failed (foamy oil or high/low oil level reading) on the previous 3 trips to pick it up after they said it was fixed. With our fast approaching motorcycle vacation coming up, we didn't have much choice but to take the bike home knowing that a PCV valve didn't cure the problem.... In the couple of remaining weeks or so before our trip, the bike only got around 200 miles put on it due to my wife's work travel schedule and it's her bike. I was basically relegated to the fact that for some reason the bike no longer would have the same oil level reading like it'd always had before for whatever reason and that hopefully it was only some minor clearance issue somewhere in the oil pump, engine, reed valves, or whatever that had caused the change in behavior... That notion sucked, but what else can you do? As many others have said (both on facebook and here), their '08+ XB's do pretty much the same thing if they don't check the oil after the bike has fully warmed up. Great. Fast forward to last month, 6/10/2016: We set out at 9:30am for what we hoped would be a 7,500 mile ride to Banff National Park in Canada and then down the West Coast along Highway 101 to San Francisco and then back home to Kansas City from there. We made it around 170 miles before my wife tells me (over our Sena communicators - LOVE THEM) that her check engine light just came on... no wait, it's her oil pressure light! Awesome, we hadn't even stopped for gas yet and her bike has a problem. I told her to shut it off and pull over ASAP. When I initially looked at it on the side of the road, in full riding gear, on a 100'F day, while the bike is covered and dripping in HOT oil, is that one of the oil like retaining clips came off again which happened back in 2010 or 2011. I got out a new clip and starting getting into replacing it, when I realized that the clip hadn't failed and it was still in place on the fitting... After trying to plug the oil line back in and noticing that the black fitting in the oil pump was wobbling, I used a small pair of pliers to turn it. (Not fully realizing that this fitting isn't a wobble fitting, etc. since I've never messed with them before.) Well I used the pliers and without any effort the fitting rotated ever so slightly and then fell out of the oil pump.... We ended up using AAA and 9 hours later we were finally back home. We had close to $1,000 worth of non-refundable hotel (HOTWIRE) stays booked that we were going to lose if we didn't stay on track, so we forged ahead. Thankfully we have other bikes, so my wife decided to ride my '03 XB9S instead. I spent the next 3 hours in the garage swapping the tires / wheels from her Uly over to the Lightning, installing a fresh belt, getting the luggage from her bike repacked into the soft luggage on the XB9, and moving over the tank bag, etc. We hit the road again at 9pm that night to make up time on what was originally going to be a long riding day anyway. (Kansas City, MO to Minot, ND anyone...) Once we made it back home from our trip early on the morning of 6/26 (Sunday). I got the trailer ready and we took the bike back to the dealership on Monday, 6/27 even though the warranty had expired while they initially had it the 62 days just prior to our trip. They called back several days later (Sat 7/2) and said that they looked at it and didn't think they did anything to cause it and that it was going to be around $1,080 or something to fix it and wanted to know what our thoughts were. I explained that we had it there for an intermittent issue with the oil level and oil foaming that that it seems pretty clear to me that this was the problem that no one could find. It seems that the oil line was getting ready to come loose and was apparently sucking air in the line as the fitting moved around. (This is the oil cooler return line.) I told them that I'd greatly appreciate them going to bat for us and trying to get it covered under the ESP warranty, since they all saw the crazy foamy oil on our previous trips and we all know that it wasn't fixed by replacing the PCV valve... That was on 7/2. He was friendly and said that made sense and that he hadn't thought about that. He said he'd call the warranty company and see what he could do and call me back later that day. I haven't heard from them since. I'm guessing, hoping, assuming that they're fixing it now - but I don't really know. Stay tuned to see how this all turns out. I really hope I don't end up having to fix it myself... and who knows what kind of damage (if any) was done to the engine bearings, etc now that that oil line has come loose from the engine while running now twice at highways speeds. My wife doesn't feel like she'll be able to trust it anymore. Bright side: It didn't come loose while mid-corner and cause her to wipe out since the bike (and her right boot / leg) was COVERED in oil both times when it happened. Glad she was wearing riding pants & riding boots both times! And I'm thankful that it didn't happen any farther from home so we didn't have to worry about how to get the bike back home and if / how we could continue the vacation on one bike if we were to pare down 2 bikes worth of gear, to one so she could ride with me. Hopefully the dealership will call one of these days before long and tell me that it's all fixed, warranty covered it, and that I can come pick it up. And HOPEFULLY, I'll be able to report that the oil foaming is gone, and that our previous cold/hot oil level check procedure on this bike has returned to what used to be normal for us!     | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, you for certain know what the problem was now. I wonder if the fitting was over-tightened and stripped at some point or if it was loose, and vibration caused the fitting to eventually wallow-out the threads. Good luck on getting it covered under warranty. It certainly seems like they should have caught this well before it got to this point. Too many mechanics these days are in the mode of "keep replacing parts until the problem goes away" without any skill at trouble-shooting. Even if you have to fix it, I believe it'd be a pretty simple job. Either replace the oil pump casting or remove the existing and repair the threads with a Time-sert. | ||
| Griffmeister |
Probably a good time to replace the oil tubes at the engine. I think there were some posts last year where people noticed that the clips were actually wearing into the tubes so badly that they would fall out just from vibration (even though you had a bad fitting, the close up on the tube sure looks worn). As far as the reed valve goes, it's just a little strip of spring metal. They do fatigue and break, but I have a brand new reed valve in my 08 and it still has the same oil level issues that you describe. |
