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Buewulf
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 02:26 pm: | 
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"Belts don't do well with changes to tension"
Mark's test seems to demonstrate that the belt does not undergo significant changes in tension through the range of motion. I suppose you could measure the circumference of the belt at each extreme to verify that for sure, but I think Mark's approach offers sufficient evidence. |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 03:12 pm: |
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no offense to Mark's test , but I don't have a lot of confidence in putting one finger on a belt and thinking I can tell the difference in pressure, I wouldn't torque down anything with my hand and expect it to be correct either without a torque wrench and I have no Idea if the pulleys on Marks bike or mine are round and not machined off center so I would have to look for the tight spot on the belt like you would do with the primary chain ? I don't have the answers but I got a lot of questions. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 04:23 pm: |
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I think you need to re-read what Mark said... he said that with a "very little added tension", he was able to lock up the pulley. He didn't say how much tension, just a little bit.
Since moving the swingarm through it's travel didn't significantly increase the drag on the pulley, and certainly didn't lock it up, that means that the change in swingarm angle didn't change the belt tension by a significant amount. I think his test was valid.
You'd written "Belts don't do well with changes to tension.". Well, that's exactly what you'll get with the Free Spirits tensioner. That thing has been debated ad nauseum here on badweb, with one camp saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and the other saying it isn't needed. Put me in the latter camp, that wimpy little spring in the FS tensioner doesn't have a chance against the gyrations that a belt normally goes through, drum tight or not. If I thought it was a good thing, we'd find a way to carry it at American Sport Bike. We don't, 'nuff said.
I have your email address, I'll email you the Buell Fuell article on the belt tensioner design. It won't answer all your questions but it shows what Buell looked at when they designed it. There were some very smart folks that worked on that stuff at Buell, I'd be hesitant to second guess them.
Note that one of the delays in the release of the first XBs was because of changes in the belt idler design. The early prototypes had an adjustable version that you locked down once you put the desired tension on it. The production models eliminated that with a fixed idler design.
Al |
Arry
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 04:50 pm: |
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I like Mark's test/posting, though it's not very exacting, it does give a pretty good indication that there is not much change in belt tension through the arc of suspension travel. I guess we would each have to perform the test for ourselves to be believers, but I appreciate the evidence he has posted.
Desertdon makes a good point that there are other factors (front and rear pulleys or idle pulley out of round) that could affect tension, as the belt and pulleys rotate, Mark's test just deals with suspension travel. |
Spuh
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 08:58 pm: |
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http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/icons/link-u p.gif
I see I'm not the only one it's happened to. Thanks for the explanation. |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 09:09 pm: |
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Please do send me the article. I guess I question the Belt design because seems like a lot of belts being replaced ? You really don't see a lot of Guys carrying extra belts on HD Dressers or hear of that many issues , My 99 ultra classic was far from stock and I rode the livin crap out of it and 65000 miles later I changed the belt out of guilt. The New Polaris Slingshot weights 1750 pounds , 2.4 ltr engine, 173 HP and 166 ft lb of torque with the same width belt as the Buell and a whole shit load more tire on the ground , Will they be carrying extra belts on those ? |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 11:18 pm: |
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Thanks Al for the Buell article and the fast shipping of the parts I ordered . .010 inches of belt length change in the range of travel is as close as it gets |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 11:24 pm: |
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Al, which issue was it? I'm skimming through my copies, I can't recall which one it is. I found one with an Ask Abe about the evolution of the belts over the years and retrofitting the 2004+ system to an 03, but I haven't found the tensioner one yet. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2015 - 11:45 pm: |
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>>>There were some very smart folks that worked on that stuff at Buell,
That's an accurate statement.
The belt geometry is an amazing engineering feat.
A spring loaded tensioner serves the same effect as putting a bag over your date's face . . . it only changes the way things LOOK to you. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 01:40 am: |
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FUELL November/December 2004
Froggy, this badweb thread shows where YOU stored it: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=142838&post=2049822#POST2049822
from that thread:
http://froggypwns.com/buellpdfs/pdf_1112_2004.pdf
I didn't know it was here as a pdf, I'd scanned it years ago and sent Dan my scanned pages. |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 08:05 am: |
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One thing that concerned me about the belt-tensioner stuff is the idler runs over the back of the belt.
If the the thickness of the belt is changed, doesn't that also change the tension of the belt?
I freaks me out to feel how tight a new belt is especially as compared to how floppy I have my X1 set to but I have only lost one belt on my XB12X in 50,000 miles. |
Mark_weiss
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 08:31 am: |
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Belt driven camshafts use toothed belt drive, similar in appearance (but much thinner) to a Buell drive. Cam belts normally have a reverse curve around their tensioners. Cam belts experience an extremely irregular drive loading. If you've never turned a camshaft by hand, the loading from valve forces produces very sudden on-off loading. Beyond that, when the camshaft is opening a valve, the shaft resists turning and when a valve is closing, the shaft is suddenly pushed "forward" and the drive would have to resist that movement. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 10:30 am: |
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Mark- Interesting that you bring up cam belts. I read an interview with Smokey Yunick some years back where he talked about them. About the time of the article (late 1980's?), NASCAR had suffered a rash of broken timing chains and was trying to figure out why. Cam profiles had steadily gotten more radical and they were having difficulty getting cam chains to last through races.
Yunick had this cool test rig that was a small block Chevy engine with various clear parts (valve covers, timing chain cover, and oil pan). The engine didn't "run"; it was spun up by a ~300 HP electric motor. For problems like this, he'd spin an engine up to operating RPM, and study various parts with a strobe light. He found that the radical cam profiles were causing the timing chain to "whip" due to what you mentioned above which lead to the chains breaking. His solution was to change to toothed belts and they found that they worked well.
The odd thing is that a toothed belt has significantly less strength than a chain. What the belts did accomplish was to "damp out" the pulsing loads that resulted from the radical cam profiles. So even though belts were weaker, they cured the breakage problem.
This doesn't have much relevance to motorcycle final drives, but I thought it was interesting. |
Skifastbadly
| | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2015 - 06:56 pm: |
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If Buell engineers were as smart as some think, they would have designed these bikes with belts AND suspenders. |
Mark_weiss
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2015 - 09:34 am: |
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Damping. That's why our bikes don't have a cush drive system. All of my other bikes have some sort of driveline shock damping device. Rubber cushions in the rear hub, ramps and spring on the driveshaft. |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2015 - 03:31 pm: |
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You CAN buy a belt that will fit but it will not last long because they are designed for a totally different application IE Industrial machinery/ other bikes. The OEM belts are the only ones for the job.
How long a belt will last depends on many things including how you ride the bike. Lots of wheelies will kill it very quickly. In my case see my past posts.
In my opinion a FST does NOT make a belt last longer but it DOES make for better/ easier gear changes and a smoother more compliant rear shock movement. Something you would only know if you had one, could tell the difference in the first place and had correctly fitted/ adjusted it. I have had two Uly with FSTs and more belts than I can remember. Possibly more than anyone else here.
The problem is not the rubber of the belt, the teeth do wear the rear pulley as well, but the "shock load" on the belts Kevlar cores which weaken and then break internally.
The Uly has a much longer arc of rear travel, than the other XBs, and is NOT constant which is needed for ANY belt on ANY application. It is VERY hard to measure but is easy to prove on a ride if you take the time and effort to do it.
Apart from the original D belt on the 06 bike all have been E belts. The last one on the 06 bike was a F belt and the 10 bike has a F belt as well now. The E belts seemed to "slake off" quickly but the F belts seem to hold there length longer or at least to the 5k miles on the 10 bike so far. Also it was still very ridged on the last rear tire change. Seems to me to be a MUCH stronger built belt and maybe why it costs more than a E belt. Time/ miles will tell I guess. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2015 - 03:52 pm: |
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How long a belt will last depends on many things including how you ride the bike. Lots of wheelies will kill it very quickly. In my case see my past posts.
I'm sure that's generally true, but I have seen at least one exception. The first time I met Badwebber Barker, it was at "Tail of the Dragon" and he was riding his 2003 XB9R. At the time, the bike had ~30k miles on the original notoriously-prone-to-breaking-for-no-reason Gates belt. The bike had no belt guards, and he showed me a 1/2" hole in the belt made by a rock which had been there for several thousand miles. I am sure that bike has done PLENTY of wheelies.
IIRC, that original belt finally broke at around 40,000 miles. Apparently Barker's XB9R IS the exception that proves the rule! |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2015 - 06:01 pm: |
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Ok, well what is described by Uly_man as "shock loads?" is what I was referring to as changes to tension , not just from the arc of travel of the swing arm but backing off the gas and slamming full throttle , this is where the belt goes slack from tension then reloaded to extreme instantly, or Shock Loads if you prefer. I had a 1999 ultra classic with 95" kit, big cams , screaming eagle heads , dyno jet power commander and vance and Hines pipes , I know I did at least 100 wheel stands on it and smoked the tire on a regular basis , I traded it in on a 110" 2011 Road Glide Ultra at 65000 miles with the original belt ? 900lb Bike, go figure |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 12:30 pm: |
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Desertdan. From your posts I would have to agree with you 100%. For what you say you want to do with the bike just carry a old belt as a backup if needed. It is easy to change on the road side. |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 12:53 pm: |
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Uly_man I do plan to get another belt for a spare to carry ,I never did on my 99 ultra classic or have one on my 2011 road glide but I'm not sure that is very responsible on my part, I have spare fuses and collecting a few tools to carry, will need to double check what it takes to get the belt changed on the side of the road as far as tools go. |
Desertdan
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 01:01 pm: |
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I know some Guys that have had good luck with older bikes with enclosed primary belt drives using Super Max pulleys , a few Panheads and shovels I have seen. Anyway I'm going to look into this company for down the road replacement pulleys
http://www.supermax.net/ |
Tootal
| | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2015 - 11:52 am: |
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That link wouldn't connect for me but I did get this one to connect:
http://www.supermax.net/Pages/home.php
I was looking at this for my next belt change on the Harley. A bit expensive but if it works then it would be worth it if you ride enough. My Road Glide is set up similar to Desertdan, 108 ft/lbs of torque and never a broken belt. In fact, I've owned a softtail, FLHS and a Road Glide since 1989 with a combined mileage of 265,000 miles and never broken a belt. On the two bikes that went over 80,000 miles I did change the belts as part of scheduled maintenance. The Buell belt is thinner, narrower and gets bent backwards with the idler roller. That's why they don't last as long. |
Woodnbow
| | Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2015 - 05:48 pm: |
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"This doesn't have much relevance to motorcycle final drives, but I thought it was interesting."
Most of the stuff Yunik played with and showed us was interesting...
On topic: Damn, these belts are tight! Did a tire change today and put a new belt on as well. I'm shocked at how tight it is compared to the stock belt. Fingers crossed. |
Atc_no_more
| | Posted on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 09:09 am: |
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Going to replace my original 08 Uly belt (29k miles). Called local dealership where I got it in fall 07. I was told the G0500.1AKD part number has been superseded by .18KF. Any thoughts on that? Should I go with that? |
651lance
| | Posted on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 09:34 am: |
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The G0500.1AKF is the most up today and only belt made to fit the Uly. Just check the belt for cracks on both sides before installing. We've seen cracks in the belts time to time from the production process. |
Atc_no_more
| | Posted on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 11:52 am: |
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.1Akf-roger that. Will PM you about obtaining one that's not cracked up. |
Dave
| | Posted on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 02:58 pm: |
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Good tip Lance
DAve |
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