| Author | Message | ||
     Electraglider_1997 |
A few days ago I noticed my bike was listing way further than normal on the side stand. Front bolt head had been sheared off and the side stand was being held only by the rear bolt. What a pain that was for me to fix. I first tried using a dr.emel to create a slot to extract the sheared bolt with a straight screw driver. It would turn until the slot was outside the threaded well and then the slotted parts would break off or just split open into a vee. Thought I was screwed, excuse the pun. Tracked down a SnapOn roving truck and purchase a Cobalt reverse drill bit kit that included 5 bits and 5 easy outs. Expensive but at least I have it for future use. Layed the bike over onto an old min.ivan seat so that there'd be no damage to bike and so that I'd be able to see what I was doing. Reverse drilled out the 5/16 inch sheared off bolt and had to end up just drilling it out completely because my hole was off center from my previous bung up with the slotting. Got a grade 8 7/16-14x1.25 bolt and a tap. Also got a grade 8 5/16 bolt to replace the rear bolt at same time. The 7/16 bolt is much larger in comparison and probably should have been what Buell used in the first place. Was first time that I'd ever had the muffler off so it was a good learning experience. Took me all day to do but Uly is now back in service. Slept like a baby last night after all that drama with my ULY. | ||
| Desert_bird |
Had to do the same thing - in Argentina, after riding the thing for 4 days without a stand across 2/3 of Brazil. Sheared right off and the bike fell over at a fruit stand in Bahia. What a drag! I feel for you. Grade 8 bolts are like gold in Argentina. The moto mechanic laughed as he replaced what remained of the cheap original ones. "So this is American craftsmanship these days, eh?" he asked. I responded sheepishly, "well, the thing got me here didn't it?" He pointed to a row of original Super Teneres and Transalps in the shop and winked. Damn things just came loose again several days ago. Yup, that telltale over-listing, clanking when retracting and soft landings. I support the bike diligently whenever a passenger climbs onboard and dismounts. Just never have the trust that the stand will hold enough weight anymore. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Desert_bird, Next time drill and tap to 7/16-14. At least I caught mine before it fell over. The bolts that the dealer had in there before were grade 5 stainless. I should have drilled and tapped the rear bolt to 7/16-14 as well but didn't. But I did replace the stainless with a grade 8 which are golden in color. The guy that sold me the bolts says they are grade 8. Will have to investigate that I guess. I also used anti-seize on the threads and a lock washer. Will have to keep an eye on them to make sure they don't start backing out. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Grade 8 have 6 marks on the head and that is what I installed. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://lightfo ol.comuv.com/features/rigging/boltnutgrades.jpg&im grefurl=http://lightfool.comuv.com/features/riggin g/boltandnutgrades.html&h=453&w=600&sz=68&tbnid=Qh 6RfjJYJP_ExM:&tbnh=91&tbnw=121&zoom=1&usg=__2qTkk4 a3PdQuVYBsKlYinOusGFE=&docid=sZXxpy798XSeuM&sa=X&e i=GS0eUtK3Jo6BqgG4_YDoBQ&ved=0CEsQ9QEwAw&dur=398 (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on August 28, 2013) | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVndKEtazNg | ||
| Desert_bird |
Thanks for the info EG. Good suggestions. At the time we found black Grade 8 allen bolts with the same threading as stock. These remain on the bike but they loosened up recently. Caught them in time, pulled them out, cleaned the case holes and re-threadlocked them. Hope that the red threadlock holds better this time than before. The updated 3-bolt setup up on the '10 bikes would be nice for the peace of mind. Should they loosen again I will follow you advise and tap them up to get a snugger fit. | ||
| Teeps |
OEM bolts are grade 8. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I've had good luck with heat on bolts like this (sidestand bolts, motor mount bolts, etc). I have a propane torch. Fire it up and heat the bolt for about 60 seconds, then use my tool of choice to back it out. When the loctite tightens up again...heat it up again. Works like a charm. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Teeps, Me thinks you are wrong about the OEM bolts being grade 8. The bolts that were in my 06' ULY were put there when the side stand recall was done. They are stainless steel which is Grade 2 or at most 5. They are without any head markings indicating any grade. The fastener dealer I bought the Grade 8 bolts said that the bolt I showed him was not grade 8 but might be as high as grade 5. Read this: http://www.kimballmidwest.com/catalog/MarketingTex t/A%20Fastener%20Primer%20-%20Stainless%20Steel%20 By%20Guy%20Avellon.pdf | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
The 06 and 07 came with only two 5/16" bolts of questionable grade. I don't know about the 08 and 09 bikes but above Desert Bird mentions that the 2010 bike has a 3 bolt setup. 2 bearing wheels upgraded to 3 bearings and 2 bolt to 3 bolt upgrade. Both would have been greatly appreciated on the 06 bikes. Maybe the 2010 bikes also have grade markings on the bolts. | ||
| Uly_man |
"I have a propane torch. Fire it up and heat the bolt for about 60 seconds, then use my tool of choice to back it out. When the loctite tightens up again...heat it up again". Yes you need to watch out for this on these bikes. Trust me I KNOW? What happens is that as you undo the bolt friction heats up the locking paste but it then goes semi hard quick IE Part locks the threads again. If you carry on trying to remove the bolt it can either shear the head off or snap the Torx bit. I have never known anything like this on bikes or car before. Granted your bike will not fall apart but it is a nightmare if you want to work on the bike and do not know about it. The stuff is nasty crap. (Message edited by uly_man on August 29, 2013) | ||
| Xbimmer |
Al says they are Grade 8. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/287535.html Had my front bolt shear recently but I think it was damaged when my landlord backed his trailer into my bike, shoving it forward against the stand which snapped it at the clevis. New leg eventually worked loose after several months then I discovered the broken bolt. Up until then the recalled stand (with new OEM bolts) done in 2006 was performing just fine. | ||
| Al_lighton |
The part number for them is CA0015.02A8, and the Buell description for the is BOLT, 5/16-18X1-1/4, GR 8, W/2510N PATCH. Those same bolts are used for the shifter and brake pivots, the stabilizer heim joints, and the kickstand mount. So darn right they're grade 8. Oddly enough, they don't appear in the HW listings in parts manuals where all the other bolts appear. Al | ||
| Al_lighton |
They aren't stainless. If someone has a stainless one installed there, the wrong bolt was installed. Oddly enough, both the 2009 and 2010 parts book list ONLY the XB12XT (FX) as having three bolts there. All the other models are listed as having only 2. Since the engine casting is the same for all, I question whether the parts book is accurate here. But the bolt is the same in all cases. The joint design is crappy, to be sure. The bolts are in line longitudinally on the bike, but the load is primarily bending in the lateral direction. If the bolts never loosen, its sufficient. But if they loosen at all, a fatigue failure is pretty much assured. Al | ||
| Uly_man |
"He pointed to a row of original Super Teneres and Transalps in the shop and winked". The stand on my Super Ten rusted out and then fell over, LOL. A great bike and with a bit of work almost as good as a Uly. It is a shame that they are so old now. Mine was just worn out at 70k miles. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Al, Do these bolts you call out have any grade markings on them and what color are they? | ||
| Uly_man |
As Al says they are not SS and you should not use them. If it was me I would use the new OEM HD bolts but NOT torque them to the same number. I would use a locking paste and a locking washer and then wind them in by feel IE Just nipping them up and is all that is needed. Grade markings these days can be a problem. Years ago you could work/trust these but today it can mean very little. The best way to know a good bolt is that it should have sharp lines and sharp markings IE No "soft" stamp marks or less than perfect rolled or cut treads. Or to put it another way if it looks like crap then there is a good chance it is. | ||
| Al_lighton |
They don't have any markings on them, which isn't surprising because I think they're a proprietary flange head bolt. I don't think you'll find one like it at Fastenal or Mcmaster or wherever. They're zinc (likely) coated steel. Definitely magnetic. You can see a picture of one here: http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/17127.html Any time you remove a bolt that has dry thread locker, or likely even regular Loctite, you should not keep turning CCW if it starts to get harder to turn. At that point, you need to reverse the ratchet, go 1/4-1/2 turn CW, and then start backing it out again. The dry threadlocker can stack up in the thread and bind it up. Reversing direction briefly will unbind it, and it will progress much further than the 1/2 turn or whatever that it took to unbind it. Sometimes it takes two or three such reversals to remove a bolt with dry thread lock. NOT doing this can easily break the bolt. And if that happens, and then you reach for the easy-out, you're starting to remove it with the easy out at the same bound point, which will break off the easy-out. I hate that name. They're never easy, and they often don't get them OUT. I'll only use a shallow grip screw extractor if I need such a thing. Al | ||
| Uly_man |
"I hate that name". As do I. "I'll only use a shallow grip screw extractor". As do I. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Al, That picture you linked is the same look of the bolt that hadn't sheared, the other being sheared off. Some stainless is magnetic by the way. Cold formed stainless can be magnetic. Given that those are Grade 8, I think they are not up to the task as evidenced by Buell finally going to 3 bolts. Hopefully the 7/16" grade 8 I tapped up to will hold up to the job. It certainly looks like it should but only time will tell. Like everything else, I will have to give it a look-see on a regular basis. Like most bikes I've owned the manufacturer has left a lot of room for improvement. Makes life interesting. If everything was perfect where would the fun in that be. | ||
| Hoover_uly |
"Oddly enough, both the 2009 and 2010 parts book list ONLY the XB12XT (FX) as having three bolts there. All the other models are listed as having only 2. Since the engine casting is the same for all, I question whether the parts book is accurate here" Looks like you are correct, Al. My 09 XP has 3 bolts and they the resemble the one shown in your link. Since they are corroded like every other fastener on the bike, I assume they are original. | ||
| Teeps |
Electraglider_1997 Posted on Thursday, August 29, 201 Given that those are Grade 8, I think they are not up to the task as evidenced by Buell finally going to 3 bolts. I will concede that the 2 bolt design is weak. But the 2 bolt design is up to the task if proper tension (or stretch) is reached. And subsequently do not become loose or in Xbimmer's case damaged. The link Xbimmer posted above says it all IMO. Al, Sorry I drug you into this. Didn't mean for it to waste your valuable time... | ||
| Al_lighton |
Ha! Everyone's time is valuable....this is what I do. I learned something new, I had no idea that 09+s and/or XTs had three bolts until this. So feel free to drag me into these. Sometimes I can jump right on it, but sometimes not (i.e. Mondays...) Al | ||
| Danair |
+1 Teeps. The vast majority of failed bolt, studs, etc we find are from insufficient torque. Its easy to tell looking at the fracture if that's the case or it was twisted off. My sidestand had paint on it. Big no no. Seen entire cylinders depart the case from paint on the mounting flange. Paint eventually compresses or works (even powder coat, which is worse because its thicker) releasing the torque. That's all it takes, even grade 8's. | ||
| Teeps |
Clamping force is king! | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I've owned many bikes over the years and never had a sidestand problem of any kind except for now. This wouldn't be any problem because motorcycles seem to be one problem to fix to the next except for the fact that there was a recall and Buell acknowledged what a weak design it was by going to 3 bolts. You guys can make excuses how if everything is perfectly torqued that it is a peachy design but I'd say that every failure was torqued by either the factory or a dealer at recall time. Crap happens but let's not try to make excuses for a weak design. Weak kickstand, weak ECM design and placement, weak rear wheel design. ULY isn't a weak bike but it sure isn't perfect as first designed. I'll just keep fixing it when these things happen because with my bike it has really been a rarity. | ||
| Danair |
I heli-coil everything on the bike when I have a chance to be at that fastener. Cheap insurance and its way more fun doing it when you want to, not when you have to. Haven't been at the sidestand, never had the muffler off. Does it look like there's room for bigger bolt AND heli-coil? | ||
| Panhead_dan |
Teeps Posted on Friday, August 30, 2013 - 12:24 pm: Clamping force is king! Good fit and clamping force are King! Fit on mine was the reason it kept coming loose. The bolts just hold the two parts together. When they don't fit together well, the bolts will work loose. All it took was a little elbow grease and a file. That and a close look at the actual contact (fit) between the case and sidestand mount. By the way, do not use red lok tite. | ||
| Desert_bird |
Why not use red Loktite? There is no foreseeable reason that I want those bolts to loosen up - Ever. Or is it that Loctite red doesn't really work well enough? That it won't really lock sufficiently enough to keep a bolt from loosening, but it will lock enough to get a semi-loose bolt from coming all the way out. I would weld that thing on if the stand didn't wasn't mated to an (aluminum!) case. All the talk about great engineering on the Uly - and there is plenty - doesn't get around the fact that the Uly side stand is a relic of some quite poor engineering decisions inherited from HD. That side stand needs to be mated to a steel base plate, not a mushy aluminum case. This is something Eric and his team really could have taken a closer look at. It's like Husain Bolt running around on one stiletto with a 6 inch glass heel. Enough moaning. So about the Loctite. What's the deal? (Message edited by Desert_bird on September 01, 2013) | ||
| Arry |
The Uly has longer suspension than a lot of street bikes, and longer sidestand, so there's a lot of leverage on that mounting point. I'm wondering if some of the problem is that some people sit on their bike, when it's balanced on the stand, or putting their weight on the stand when getting on or off the bike. It's a good thing to check those bolts regularly and avoid any excess weight/stress on the sidestand |
