| Author |
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Red450
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 09:20 pm: | 
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Update:
On Sunday, I did the TPS/AFV reset w/both ECMs again. The bike still ran poorly. I cleaned up the grounds and it made no difference.
Today, I installed new plug wires and the bike ran great. I did the TPS/AFV reset again, set the idle and went out for a test ride. It ran smooth and strong for about 10-15 minutes of spirited riding, then the surging came back so I turned towards home. The surging got worse as I rode.
Once again, no check engine light, no trouble codes. It really seems to be focused around 3.5k to 5k rpms once the bike gets warm.
Fuel Issue?
(Message edited by red450 on November 26, 2012) |
Arry
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 11:32 pm: |
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There was a factory recall to replace/relocate the BAS (bank angle sensor), it shuts the bike down if it tips over. I don't know what symptoms you would get with a bad one. If your curious, you can get more info with an archive search. The original position of the switch is below the ECM connectors, if it's been upgraded it will be back behind the seat latch. I haven't had mine done yet. |
Buewulf
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:47 am: |
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Temporarily disable the fan and see if you still have the surging. You say it only happens when it gets hot. The added electrical load of the fan may be causing some issues.
You can disable the BAS to test that component as well. |
Red450
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:31 am: |
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Buewulf, I don't think the fan is the culprit. When I can get the rpms past 5k, the engine seems to be ok. I'm going to repeat last night's work w/the loaner ECM and see what happens. |
Buewulf
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 11:08 am: |
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I believe the fan only causes issues if you have some solder joint problems in the ECM. It is only a hypothesis of mine, but worth a shot if all else fails. My own problems started out just like your. As time went on, the surging became coughing and bucking and materialized at ever lower and higher RPMs. The engine had to be hot enough for the fan to kick on before I experienced any issues. I still suspect the ECM is the problem. |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 11:39 am: |
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Sounds like it's learning to run wrong in closed loop mode.
If you reset the AFV to 100, will it run right again? |
Red450
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 11:49 am: |
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"Sounds like it's learning to run wrong in closed loop mode.
If you reset the AFV to 100, will it run right again?"
Prior to this past test ride, I reset the AFV back to 100.
I'll check the AFV/TPS tonight and do another test ride before swapping the ECMs again. |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 03:29 pm: |
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You MUST do a logged run to see the problem. Use TunerPro only because its all in one prog. Hard to say but you may have a faulty O2 or other sensor. Without logged data its just like a deaf man trying to tell a blind man how to read. No anything intended. |
Hdxbones
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 04:35 pm: |
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Have you looked for an intake leak? |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 05:58 pm: |
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What is the AFV before you reset it to 100?
And the 3,500-5000 rpm range is right in the meat of the "learned fuel" area. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 06:18 pm: |
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Just based on this thread alone I would start suspecting the O2 sensor |
Red450
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 06:23 pm: |
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Tomorrow after work I'll do a logged run and report back all my findings.
I have not looked for an intake leak yet and I believe (yes, I know I should have written it down) the AFV was 90 before I reset it.
Don't 02 sensors normally cause trouble codes/CEL? |
Buewulf
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 08:37 am: |
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"Don't 02 sensors normally cause trouble codes/CEL?"
They are tricky bastards because so long as they are sending a signal, the ECM believes what the O2 sensor tells it. Good call by Froggy.
Another thing you may want to try that is easy would be to clean the sensor in the airbox with some alcohol. I doubt that is your issue, but you never know. And definitely check for the intake seal leak as that is easy test as well, though I doubt that one as well. Eliminate the easy possibilities before moving on to the bigger jobs. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 08:44 am: |
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FWIW, the ECM can't see an intermittently bad cam position sensor. You need a scope for that. |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 09:37 am: |
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My O2 sensor went bad.
"sensor in the airbox". These can give bad numbers to the ECM as well. Mine did. A s a basic test move the wire out from under the air box into open air and refit the sensor. You can not tell this is doing this and has gone bad without a diagnostic tool. I think this may be the source of many a problem. |
Red450
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 05:51 pm: |
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Ok, I did two short rides with the logger from ECMspy running.
Ride 1:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29535852/20121128_1641.log
Ride 2 (after TPS/AFV reset):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29535852/20121128_1712.log
The AFV was 100 before the TPS/AFV reset and still at 100 when I got back from my ride.
Let me know if you need other info or logs.
(Message edited by red450 on November 28, 2012) |
Red450
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 07:45 am: |
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IT'S ALIVE!
Monday night, I swapped the O2 sensor and after reassembly, I started the TPS reset process but EcmSpy wouldn't show the TPS degrees or percentage bar. Thinking I royally screwed something up, I left it for the night.
Last night, I started checking connections and wiring, hoping that I didn't cause a short somewhere while trying to remove the fan. The TPS sensor voltage was within normal range, so I swapped in Djohnk's loaner ECM. Holy crap! All the data was now showing. I did the TPS reset and took the bike out. It ran great!
The only issue I noticed was occasionally the tach needle would jump but the engine didn't change rpms. Going to check to see if I have the tach wiring too close to the coil/plug wires.
I'm not sure why it didn't run right when I swapped in the loaner ECM before, maybe I didn't do the TPS reset correctly or maybe the 02 sensor was really failing.
I'm declaring it fixed for now.
Thank you guys for all of your help and advice!
(Now, do I buy an EBR or a used ECM for Buellster?) |
Djohnk
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 09:43 am: |
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There are people out there who purchased a EBR ECM, so they have good (?) used ECMs laying around. I bought a used ECM for super cheap, but that's always a gamble, especially when there are so many bad ones out there.
I would ask for a guarantee if purchasing a used ECM, otherwise I would go with a EBR ECM in conjunction with a new can, funds permitting.
You can hang on to my loaner ECM as long as you like (make sure you wrap some stretchy tape around it after you connect it to force the cracks closed -- that's how I got by for several months with no symptoms until I found a replacement). |
Red450
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 09:51 am: |
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I'll email Buellster Parts and see what they say about a warranty/guarantee.
There is an EBR ECM for my stock bike. I've read EcmSpy can cause issues w/the EBR. How do you do a TPS/AFV reset on a pre08 bike w/the EBR?
Thanks Djohnk, I should be able to pick up an ECM soon. Not to sound dense, but how did you wrap your ECM? |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 02:57 pm: |
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"The AFV was 100 before the TPS/AFV reset and still at 100 when I got back from my ride."
The data from both of your rides is all over the place and wrong for whatever reason. None of it is usable or can be used to find the problem. The AVF will change for various conditions so do not worry on that one on a normal base run. It will change over time due to conditions and is normal.
You should be getting steady numbers from your logged run. Like rising engine temps (to about 220c) and the O2 sensor starts working at about 100C. BAS and charge volts should remain steady. TPS volts should rise on throttle up. Inlet air (air inlet/box) temp is a one to watch and can only be checked as working/changing right with a logged run. |
Red450
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 03:20 pm: |
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Uly_man, it looks like my original ECM was at fault. Along with a loose TPS sensor which was causing voltage and degree fluctuations. Once that was tightened down, the bike still ran poorly. I changed the 02 sensor, still had issues. So, I put the loaner ECM in and it runs great.
I'm guessing that the loose TPS was causing the issues when I originally tried the loaner ECM.
I definitely blame the ECM for the bad logging.
(Message edited by red450 on December 05, 2012) |
Buewulf
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 05:50 pm: |
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Congrats! Victory! |
Red450
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 09:13 pm: |
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Now that I know my ECM is kaput, a friend from another forum who owns an 09 Uly said I could have his stock ECM. Is it compatible? |
Djohnk
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 09:21 pm: |
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"how did you wrap your ECM?"
Kind of hard to explain. I used some silicon tape:
http://www.amazon.com/Silicone-Fixit-Tape-Roll-Pac k/dp/B003QBR1OS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1354760091& sr=8-5&keywords=silicon+tape
I love the stuff, it's really stretchy and sticks/bonds only to itself. Very useful. Electrical tape probably would work also.
Anyway, after plugging in the connectors, I wrapped the tape in such a way as to force the connectors towards the ecm body. I know that doesn't make much sense, but its the best I can describe. It looked ugly, but did the job. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 09:45 pm: |
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09 will not work on your bike. And the AFV at 90 indicated an over rich condition in your learned fuel area and ECM pulled 10% fuel over entire map.Usually caused by a bad engine temp sensor telling bike it is cold and adding fuel like on cold start.
Definitely not bad seals as that would skew it opposite way. |
Red450
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 07:33 am: |
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I'm going to run some logs again since it's running properly w/the tightened TPS, new 02 sensor and most importantly, the donor ECM.
I'll post my results. |
Blitzer454
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 09:22 am: |
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These ECM's are repairable. I fixed mine back in March and it still works great. I posted a thread about what causes the failure and someone else posted a cleaner looking fix than what I did. Check it out.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/673617.html |
Red450
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 09:44 am: |
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From look at your pictures Blitzer454, no wonder these things fail!
That type of tiny soldering repair is way above my skill level! I'll just keep my eyes out for a new/used one. |
Red450
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 09:53 pm: |
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Will an ECM from an 07 XB12R work on my 06 Uly? I found a used one for $150. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 01:01 am: |
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07 should work. |
Djohnk
| | Posted on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 02:46 am: |
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Affirmative, '07 works, that is what the loaner is from. |
Red450
| | Posted on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 07:28 am: |
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But an 07 XB12R? |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 11:30 am: |
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Red450 - You should see the ECM type number with ECM-SPY.
I would not, myself, buy a used one unless you are sure it is ok and you have tested it as you may end up with same problem.
I am glad you sorted it out and "top marks" to Djohnk for the loaner. And to you Red450. Good job. |
