| Author | Message | ||
     Motorbike |
Guys, I know I've posted this before but I am still having issues with my 08 XT idling poorly when it is not completely up to operating temp. This bike runs best in hot weather or at least when the engine is completely warmed up. I have the EBR ECM but everything else is stock. I re-installed the stock ECM and it ran even worse so now I am back to the EBR ECM. When first started, the bike goes right up on fast idle, like it should, and then slowly drops down to around 1050 or so. At this point it just sounds like it is running on one cylinder but if I just rev it up and go, it runs good. No pops, backfires or hesitation at all. Just sounds strange at idle. I also notice that it does this occasionally after riding some distance and then stopping for a break of 45 minutes or so. After starting the bike, which is not completely cooled off yet, it seems to idle like crap, almost as if it is missing, but once again, it runs fine at anything above idle or when hot. It has been running like this most of the summer and I have not had time to work on it. When I have time, I'd rather ride than work on the bike. Now that winter is approaching, I would like to check a few things out. I suspect that the problem could be one simple thing but I cannot afford to just replace a piece at a time by guessing. I know some are going to recommend Tuner Pro but I have no idea how to use anything like that. Computers and I don't get along. I suspect one of the following may be causing the problem: Coil, O2 sensor, Engine Temp Sensor, Intake Air Temp sensor or maybe the Idle Air Control. New plugs and wires did not help at all. Is it possible to check all of these sensors with just a digital Volt-Ohm meter one at a time? I have the Electrical Service manual and a good understanding of electrical and mechanical components but am lacking in computer speak.  Any help or advice is appreciated. I love this bike, just don't like how it idles cold. Thanks! | ||
| Uly_man |
Does it stall at idle, does it stall pulling away from stand still and is low speed control any problem? Are you getting bad vibs on a cold engine idle and does the engine "pick up" ok while pulling away from a cold idle? It should be fine. (Message edited by Uly_man on October 08, 2012) | ||
| Motorbike |
Hey Uly_man, thanks for the reply. No, it never stalls. It pulls away from a stand still with no hesitation. Low speed control is not the best, seems hard to ride around town smoothly. It does seems to vibrate a lot at idle but has since new, I think that part is normal. I even replaced the front isolator a while back but that did not help at all with vibrations. This bike just reminds me of the old hot rod cars in days past where they lope and run like crap until you get on the throttle and then you better hang on... Thanks again. | ||
| Uly_man |
From what you say, without seeing the bike and you might find strange, on a 08 bike you could have a good one. Trust me any problems with this twin and it will be a REAL pain it the ass. Try extra revs and slipping the clutch for low speed stuff. Unless something has changed with use of the bike I would not worry. It will never run as smooth as a four and is the nature of the engine. | ||
| Motorbike |
The low speed control issue I am having is more a problem with maintaining a nice even 20 to 30 MPH. I either have to go faster or shift down so engine revs are way up while riding slowly through town. As far as the idle is concerned, sometimes I think I will just live with it but then some guy pulls up next to me with an 1800cc Gold Wing, which is hard to tell if it is running or not.....sounds about the same either way. | ||
| Uly_man |
It sounds, more or less, like the way the bike is or at least the way mine have been. Its a 50 year old long stoke air cooled V-Twin engine. If the Gold Wing was a B2 Bomber the Buell is a flint axe. Trust me yours sounds like it is REAL good one, LOL. | ||
| Buewulf |
so engine revs are way up What is your definition of "way up"? | ||
| Motorbike |
By way up, I mean somewhere between 4000 and 5000 RPM. Thanks. Does anyone know if the sensors mentioned in the original post can be checked with an Ohm meter? The Electrical Service Manual shows a "Breakout Box" to help isolate electrical problems. I do not have one of these and I would guess most dealers don't either. Do I really need that to do the tests in the troubleshooting chart? Maybe my bike runs like it should but I have to admit I like tinkering with stuff. I just figure if I am doing my end-of-season maintenance, I might as well check things out. I enjoy knowing exactly how things work. Thanks. | ||
| Husky |
I have had similar problems at idle with my 08XT, that turned out to be a collection of black gunk in the throttle body at the butterfly closure line and in the Idle air intake port/valve. I cleaned them up using Q-Tips and paper towel wrapped around a long screw driver plus some carb cleaner on the swabs. 25,777 happy miles so far(EBR ECM).... husky | ||
| Motorbike |
Thanks Husky, I did check and clean the throttle body and butterfly this summer. It was a little black on the back side of the plate so I cleaned it up spotless with throttle body cleaner and some clean rags. I pulled the IAC out to inspect but there was no carbon build up on it at all. Looked like new at about 12000 miles. Thanks. | ||
| Buewulf |
You can test them all with a volt/ohm meter, though you would only get limited info on your O2 sensor (essentially whether it is sending a signal or not). The only one I am not sure about the IAC, but I bet you can. For the TPS, it is best to have an analog voltmeter. | ||
| Buewulf |
Also look at the part of the wiring harness that runs over the rear head. I believe the wire for your IAC motor is in that bunch. You can get some friction wear there. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Interesting. I posted about a similar issue on the XB board. Have you checked your intake seals? Start there. If it sounds like it's firing on one cylinder, it probably is. My bike will fire on one cylinder intermittently until it warms up some. I didn't discover this until I plugged the stock ecm back in. I suspect the EBR with its higher pressure settings and richer maps is masking the possible bad injector, or I might be crazy. | ||
| Andymnelson |
I have always ran my Uly in the 4500 rpm range under low speed cruising. They just don't seem to like much under that. Switch to the 9 gearing helped this aspect a bit, since the rpms are now 11% higher, usually making it bearable to use the next gear up. The stock gearing and "happy" rpm range seem really off in these bikes to me. Outside of that, I would highly suggest running a can of Seafoam through it, then changing fluids and plugs and see how she does. Seafoam is oddly amazing stuff. | ||
| Towpro |
The fuel injection requires inputs to know how much fuel to provide. these sensors are Temperature (maybe both outside air, and engine temperature), Crank Position, Throttle position (and maybe more) Example: when engine is cold, it takes MORE fuel (richer mixture) to keep the bike running, but as engine warms up, it takes less and less fuel requirements(leaner mixture) until your at operating temp. Plus add in the EPA wants the bike to run as clean as it can, which means the computer might run a little less fuel then you would want, but enough to still keep it running. Now follow me here, there is a temperature sensor connected to this computer that is telling the computer what the temperature of the engine is (so the computer knows how much fuel in inject). If this sensor starts to go bad, it is not necessarily an "it works, or it don't" type failure. this sensor could be telling the computer that the engine is warmer then it really is, causing the computer to lean out the mixture too soon. in computer worlds, we call this "garbage in, garbage out". in other words, you need TRUE date in, so the computer knows what output it really needs to make. Not sure where this sensor is on a 2008, but if you had some kind of monitoring software (ECM spy?) you might be able to follow the output of the temperature sensor and see if it looks correct. Just a thought. (Message edited by towpro on October 08, 2012) | ||
| Towpro |
Additional input: I doubt this is the O2 sensor, since the ECM does not use that input until the bike is warmed up (open loop). I don't recall if the ECM uses the engine temp, or the intake air temp for adjusting the Injection. I know on the >07 you can tweak the warmup enrichment numbers, and probably on the 08. But "teaking" is only for fine tuning, after you are sure all the sensor inputs are correct. But if it worked at one time, then stopped working, it probably is a sensor (assuming everything mechanical is OK like no air intake air leaks) Edit: the temp sensor should have a value like X ohms @ X degree +- 10%, but I don't know if I have ever seen that data listed. (Message edited by towpro on October 08, 2012) | ||
| Uly_man |
Yep that covers most of it. | ||
| Motorbike |
Have you checked your intake seals? Yes I have, a few times. I would highly suggest running a can of Seafoam through it. I occasionally run about 4 oz. of Seafoam in a full tank, probably a few times each riding season. Now follow me here, there is a temperature sensor connected to this computer that is telling the computer what the temperature of the engine is (so the computer knows how much fuel in inject). Yes, this Engine Temp Sensor is mounted in the read cyl. head on my 08. I doubt this is the O2 sensor, since the ECM does not use that input until the bike is warmed up (open loop). Good point. Since the bike runs fine when hot, I think we can use this logic to rule out the IAC, O2 Sensor, Crank Position Sensor and Throttle Position Sensor? If I were to make an educated guess at this point, I would suspect the ETS or maybe the IAT sensors. As Towpro stated, it seems that maybe the ECM is leaning out the fuel mixture too soon because it thinks the engine is up to operating temp when it really is not. Very similar to the old carbureted vehicles if the automatic choke was turning off too soon. Does anyone know what the ETS and IAT sensors would cost from my local (90 miles) friendly H-D Dealer? Thank you to all of you guys for your excellent input! | ||
| Andymnelson |
Pour it in the intake. | ||
| Uly_man |
For the love of God please try and use some logic and mechanical sympathy on the bike. Also read and understand the reasons to use a product like this. The chance of having a "sticky" injector and or stack butterfly on a modern machine is very rare. http://www.seafoamsales.com/motor-treatment.html | ||
| Motorbike |
Uly_man, I take it you don't approve of this "Overhaul-in-a-can" stuff? I wasn't trying to fix any problems with the Seafoam and to be quite honest, not even sure why I use it except as a fuel stabilizer over winter storage. The gas around here is so crappy and I have never heard anything bad about Seafoam. Your thoughts? Thanks. | ||
| Andymnelson |
Yup, the fuel is awful these days in the Midwest. What is your point Uly man? | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
After chatting with another badweber, we learned that my engine starts messing up about 30-45 seconds after startup. This also just happens to be about the time my o2 sensor voltage starts to fluctuate, indicating it is operating.... So.... is the O2 sensor trying to lean the mixture too soon after startup? EBR ecms have closed loop idle enabled. I might try disabling that to see if it makes any difference... i've replaced all of the following, none of which made any difference: TPS, ETS, IAC, plugs, wires, Intake gaskes and tested the coil (within service manual specs). | ||
| Motorbike |
Spacecapsule 1, that is interesting. So are you saying that the EBR ECM runs closed loop all the time, even when the engine is cold? Does your bike run good when warmed up? My 08 XT runs best when it is really hot outside (anything above 85 degrees is really hot here in Minnesota). In fact, I went for a long ride when it was around 95 degrees one day and the bike ran flawlessly. Have you tried a new IAT Sensor? Looks like you've tried most everything else and I would probably be wasting money to do the same as you did. Do you remember how much the ETS cost? Thank you! | ||
| Buewulf |
That was a good observation. So either the O2 sensor has gone wonky or one of the temp sensors is lying. Have you tried testing the temp sensors? | ||
| Uly_man |
Motorbike. 3-4000 rpm in 1st sounds about right for a 08 bike. 200rpm is the juddery spot. Vibs at idle for all who want to know how it should be. I know how good and bad they can be so try this. Sit on the bike, normal summer gloves on, hands on bars, bike stand up, helmet one, bike vertical, both feet on the ground, engine hot and at a steady idle of 1000 to 1100 rpm. Now hold your teeth very close together. If you only get a very slight chatter then thats as good as it gets. You should only notice a very slight wobble in you eyes/vision as well. This may sound mad but it works. I was on a Uly once that made my eyes hurt and I could not stop my teeth from chattering and the dealer said that was normal? Total rubbish. Foam grips and heavy bar weight help a lot. You will always get some vibs on this bike but not past 2000 rpm. That is the nature of the bike and what I mean about "mechanical sympathy" for this "old time" engine. You will also need to some extent, for the same reason, change your ride style if you are used to modern 4 engines. | ||
| Uly_man |
"After chatting with another badweber, we learned that my engine starts messing up about 30-45 seconds after startup. This also just happens to be about the time my o2 sensor voltage starts to fluctuate, indicating it is operating." At a steady idle the O2 should be about 0.845 Volts and stay about that. It will go from 0 to 1V on the road and is normal as that is its range for measuring the O2 in the exhaust gases. It will look like a spider pattern in TunerPro if you have used the basic .XDL setup. If it is more than 1V then it is faulty. You can turn it off and the bike can be run this way but it not a good idea for normal biking/road work. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Motorbike, I just meant that I see an option for closed loop idle and it is currently enabled. I thought to turn that off and see if idle improves. There might be more to it than that though. There's also an option for idle spark and fuel adjustment. I don't know how those 2 options interact with each other, if at all... Yes my bike runs fine once warmed up, other than the surging we all know and love. Uly_man, my idle isn't steady. thats one issue I have. I need to check the O2 voltage after a good warmup and see if its steady, but it's currently jumping from lean to rich, but not over 1 volt. I haven't tried a new IAT sensor because it reads the same as ambient, which to me means its working. head temp sensor was $80.20 (Message edited by spacecapsule1 on October 10, 2012) | ||
| Uly_man |
Spacecapsule1 - You should NOT be having any surging hot of cold. Mine never do if the bike is running right. "After chatting with another badweber, we learned that my engine starts messing up about 30-45 seconds after startup. This also just happens to be about the time my o2 sensor voltage starts to fluctuate, indicating it is operating." I just did a 11 min idle log. The O2 sensors stayed at a steady 0.85v until 3.23 min (none heated narrow band type) and then stared to work and that was when the engine temp went from 99 to 100C. Air temp went from (over the 11 min run) 12 to 19C but the bike was standing and pulling air, over the position I have moved the sensor to on the right hand side, from the engine/headers. I checked this with a meter and the rising numbers matched each other. It took 10 min for the engine temp to go from 10 to 175 C. Ambient air 16 C but logging it at 12 C, oil cooler barley warm and the spark advance started at 17.5 and finished at 1.5 degrees. TPS was 88. All of that, with my limited knowledge, sounds about right. The O2 was going up and down a lot once it got hot enough. I do not yet know if that is right but the bike run great today and when I run it yesterday as well. In fact it run/runs perfect. In my case I suspect that the IAT is picking up heat from the engine under the air filter plate because there is no other place that it could gain an extra 40 C from. And thats a HELL OF A LOT of heat. Anyway I have ordered a new one, about 15$, so we will see. They say these things are very reliable but something does not seem quite right to me some how. (Message edited by Uly_man on October 11, 2012) | ||
| Uly_man |
You may find this of help. Zirconia sensor A planar zirconia sensor (schematic picture)The zirconium dioxide, or zirconia, lambda sensor is based on a solid-state electrochemical fuel cell called the Nernst cell. Its two electrodes provide an output voltage corresponding to the quantity of oxygen in the exhaust relative to that in the atmosphere. An output voltage of 0.2 V (200 mV) DC represents a "lean mixture" of fuel and oxygen, where the amount of oxygen entering the cylinder is sufficient to fully oxidize the carbon monoxide (CO), produced in burning the air and fuel, into carbon dioxide (CO2). An output voltage of 0.8 V (800 mV) DC represents a "rich mixture", one which is high in unburned fuel and low in remaining oxygen. The ideal setpoint is approximately 0.45 V (450 mV) DC. This is where the quantities of air and fuel are in the optimum ratio, which is ~0.5% lean of the stoichiometric point, such that the exhaust output contains minimal carbon monoxide. The voltage produced by the sensor is nonlinear with respect to oxygen concentration. The sensor is most sensitive near the stoichiometric point and less sensitive when either very lean or very rich. The engine control unit (ECU) is a control system that uses feedback from the sensor to adjust the fuel/air mixture. As in all control systems, the time constant of the sensor is important; the ability of the ECU to control the fuel-air-ratio depends upon the response time of the sensor. An aging or fouled sensor tends to have a slower response time, which can degrade system performance. The shorter the time period, the higher the so-called "cross count" [2] and the more responsive the system. The zirconia sensor is of the "narrow band" type, referring to the narrow range of fuel/air ratios to which it responds. |
