| Author | Message | ||
     Yan |
it's an '09 XT. Runs fine (have put maybe 3-4 thousand miles on it since purchased this summer), but it happened a few times that after being parked at work for 8-9 hours it wouldn't start. Turn the key, push the starter button, hear a click and the bike is dead (no lights, no nothing). - The key was NOT left in a Park position so the lights weren't left on. - Jump started it every time no problem with the help of another vehicle, so I guess that eliminates the starter and the related wires. - Did long (~400-500 miles) trips on it, ran fine, so I guess the charging system is fine. - At some point I was under the impression that the battery wasn't taking charge, so I replaced it with an OEM one. That was a month and a half ago. And today the problem happened again. - Happens with both stock and racing ecm. What can it be? Intermittent electrical drain? Because if it was all the time it would've been happening every day. Now the bike is in the garage on a trickle charger. I try to start it, it acts as if the battery is dead. Wait 5 minutes, it starts fine 3 times in a row. To me it looks like something is wrong inside the battery. I know you guys are going to ask me what the battery reading is. My multimeter is not reliable, it seems to read low and doesn't seem to read Amps at all (I tried to test the bike for the electrical drain). I will buy a better one over the weekend. But in the meantime I would appreciate any ideas. Thanks! (Message edited by Yan on October 09, 2012) | ||
| Mark_weiss |
This sounds a lot like a poor connection. The battery to frame ground is pretty easily checked. Frame to engine is under the air box ( mine loosened at about 5k miles ). At the battery too. Screwdriver tight is not tight enough. Tight enough means that you cannot rotate the terminals with your fingers. | ||
| Yan |
Thanks! Just before I saw your post I went to garage and tried jump starting the bike with another bike - it worked a couple of times and then it didn't anymore. When I press the starter button all I can hear is the click from the starter relay in the fuse box. You say frame to engine is under the air box - do I have to pull off that black plastic piece that the air filter sits on? What about the starter - can it's wires get loose? Or that's the same as the engine wires that you mentioned? Thanks! | ||
| Andymnelson |
Some info I have previously posted for those chasing electrical gremlins: Do you have a service manual? I would start by looking at all grounding points- especially behind the flyscreen and the ones on the seat rail and seat rail to frame. Clean them all up real good and use star washers when re-assembling. Check your battery cables- clean and tight? There are a few pretty simple tests to test the stator, do those if it is suspect. Next I would test your voltage regulator- if you have 14 volts or less then it should be good. Next I would examine your 77 connector (if '07 or older). Next I would look at the relays (I also had a bad one of those). You can swap relays around to see if the problem moves to another area of the bike. I eventually just swapped all relays for new ones since they are only a few $$ each. From there about all you can have go wrong is wire shorts/breaks and bad sensors or connectors. | ||
| Ratbuell |
My vote is relay, if it works fine 2 or 3x then immediately quits. DEFINITELY get a shop manual. | ||
| Hughlysses |
First step in checking relays is to pull them all and re-seat them. Sometimes a corroded connection will prevent one from working properly and this will cure it. If it does this again, try swapping two relays (they're all the same) and see if it starts. If it does, you've found your wonky relay. You can get a replacement from your dealer or if you can find a decent guy behind the counter at your auto parts store, the relays are the same as some auto relays (A/C relay for an early 2000's Ford IIRC). | ||
| Andymnelson |
I agree with the above thoughts. That said, I would NEVER ride a Uly without going through the other things on my list since they are known weak points. Knowing what i now know, ifI bought a used Uly, I would immediately: Tighten/ clean battery cables Remove and clean all grounds, add star washers Clean the frame to seat frame ground, then add a grounding strap Check and possibly replace 77 connector Replace all relays Check the harness at the steering head for breaks and minimize the stress points This would take about 90 minutes of time and maybe $20, and will address 95% of electrical problems on these bikes. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Check and possibly replace 77 connector He said it's an 09 model so at least he doesn't have to worry about that. | ||
| Yan |
I do have the shop manual -does it list the grounding points? How many are there - battery to the frame next to the fuse box, then engine to the frame under the air box, any more? I took a relay off another Ulysses but that didn't help it, so I guess it's not the relay. And I can hear the relay clicking when I press the start button, so it's probably working. | ||
| Od_cleaver |
Yan, I don't think that you have ruled out the condition of your battery yet. If you want to do basic electrical debug, you need a meter that you have faith in. Your DVM may have a blown fuse. A fuse that you blew when you tried to measure drain current. | ||
| Yan |
I kind of ruled out the battery late last night when I could no longer jump start the bike using another bike's battery. Hopefully a bad grounding... Thanks for the tip on the fuse of the multimeter, that's probably what that is (Message edited by Yan on October 10, 2012) | ||
| Mark_weiss |
Yes, the frame to engine grounding strap is under the airbox base. Check the other connections before going for that one. As others have mentioned, be absolutely certain that your battery is 100%. You can save yourself a lot of trouble that way. Noting that you were jump starting from another motorcycle battery, this could be your problem area. When jump starting, the helper battery has to have enough power to start the bike, AND cover for any drain from your own battery. If your battery is really flat, it could be absorbing a significant amount of the other battery's capacity. If nothing else, disconnect the Uly's battery so that you run from only the helper battery. When trying to diagnose problems via jump starting, it is helpful is if the helper battery is of much larger current capacity, such as an automotive battery. | ||
| Yan |
Thanks Mark! How many grounding points are there? Are they listed in the shop manual? | ||
| Motorbike |
You can check to see if the ground circuit to the engine is good by simply connecting a jumper cable directly from the negative battery post to a good ground point anywhere on the engine. Make sure you are on bare steel or aluminum, not a powdercoated surface when you do this. Since the relay clicks, your starter button and kill switch should be okay. I agree with most others, it sounds like a bad connection or ground. | ||
| Motorbike |
Also, you mentioned in the original post that you have no lights, no nothing. That really sounds like a main battery to frame ground problem or possibly bad positive connection. All you need is a 12 volt test light to see how far the current is getting. If you can get at the starter solenoid wire, check for voltage there when the start button is pushed. I'm talking about the small wire that activates the starter solenoid, not the main battery connection. If you have juice at that connection when pushing the start button, then you either have a bad ground or a bad starter. | ||
| Yan |
Motorbike - it's not consistent, sometimes there is no lights and sometimes all else is fine but the starter doesn't fire. I'll probably try a battery off another Ulysses to rule the battery in or out. Thanks! | ||
| Motorbike |
Yeah, those intermittent problems can really be a bitch sometimes. It would be easy to fix if it was consistent. Good luck! | ||
| Uly_man |
To start the fault finding? Ok now you have a good meter. Take the battery off the bike, charge at less than 1 amp until fully charged and leave standing for 24 hrs. Test the volts and they should be not less than 12.5v and 12.7v is fully 100% charged as per HD spec. Re fit the battery and once you have the bike running put the meter across the + and - terminals of the battery. You should get 13v or more on the meter. If all of that is ok then move onto the next bit. Remove the fuse box by pushing a flat blade screwdriver on each side of the clips at the same time and lift it out. Undo the Torx head bolt that holds the battery lead and two small black wires to the sub frame. File off any paint on the sub frame bolt mount face and refit bolt and leads. Move onto the next bit if that does not work. Replace the starter relay. They are a known problem. If that does not work we will move to the next bit. The idea is to remove all the easy possible faults first and these are the basic ones. To test for amps you will need to do that in series. I would not try to do that as yet. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Uly_man's advice is sound. Be methodical and take it a step at a time. File off any paint on the sub frame bolt mount face and refit bolt and leads. Prior to re-installing the bolt, wire brush the threads to ensure they're clean and DON'T use Loctite on the threads as it can insulate the bolt from the frame. Put a "star" type lockwasher under each bolt head prior to reinstalling. The star lockwasher "bites" into the metal and helps ensure a good connection. (Message edited by Hughlysses on October 10, 2012) | ||
| Uly_man |
"Be methodical and take it a step at a time." The reason is because it is VERY easy to become confused about what is going on and forget what is right and what is not. It is never a good idea to "second guess" a fault on this bike. Trust me I know. I work on systems that are so complicated they make the Buell electrics look like something out of the Ark. And the Buell ones ARE harder to figure. | ||
| Yan |
Thanks everyone, will start debugging the bike on Saturday (and will buy a reliable multimeter before I do that). I will keep a log of my findings and will ask questions if I hit a wall. Hopefully will track it down. | ||
| Ratbuell |
...and to answer your question, the ground points are listed in the manual, assuming you know how to read a wiring diagram...they're all shown on there. | ||
| Yan |
So, I got a better multimeter and I got an Electrical Troubleshooting Manual online in PDF (for an '08, not an '09, but I guess there shouldn't be much difference). The problem with the relay clicking and nothing happening was a blown fuse. Replaced that and the bike started fine. The battery seems OK, and the voltage on the battery when the bike is running is around 14.5. I have another Ulysses in the garage, so I take readings from both bikes and they are very close. Still not sure what was that intermittent problem with the bike not starting after left at work. Checked the draw on the battery with the ignition OFF - 1.7 milliamp on both bikes, the manual says it has to be under 2, so it all looks good. Has anyone heard of intermittent drain on the battery? I was thinking maybe it's an intermittent short in the starter solenoid, but then it would blow that 15amp fuse all the time, and it only happened once. I am puzzled. It's my wife's bike, so I put jumper cables in the side case in case it happens again. Anyone has any fresh ideas? Thanks a lot! | ||
| Uly_man |
"Anyone has any fresh ideas?" I would replace the relay as well as a known problem and they are dirt cheap anyway. I had one in my car that worked ok one time and then (coil breaking down) not another. It failed on my return from holiday and cost me a lot of money to recover the car to my home. That was my fault as I knew there was a problem some place on the car. You should not have enough "drain" on the battery to effect it over one day. These bikes do not like a lot of cranking and even a fully charged battery can go flat quickly if it does not start. That goes for the 2010 bikes as well as I have proved it with mine. | ||
| Yan |
I switched the relay's around, but may be it's really worth replacing them. I've heard these are regular automotive relays that can be found at auto parts store - does anyone have the part number for them by any chance? Thanks! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Yan, I couldn't find a part number, but according to an old post I found apparently all four relays are the same as a 2000 Ford Focus A/C relay, which is fairly common. It would also be worth checking at your Harley dealer for the OEM part, as they are only like $4.99 (U.S.) each from the dealer. |
