| Author | Message | ||
     Uly_dude |
So I got my new E B R ECM going for the second time last night. Buzzed around town/freeway about 30 mins, everything seemed to learn fine, bike running good. Though it isn't some HUGE improvement that I can tell, but there is less popping on decel and my bike previously ran perfect. But I'm still happy cause my old ECM seemed suspect at the connector junction. I think just the way the old one is mounted, with the wires pulling down somewhat and all the vibrations just makes for a bad setup. But I digress. My question today is for those of you who already did this upgrade, did you notice anything different with your fan logic? My Uly is an 06 and I never liked it's logic before but it seems worse now. After my ride, the bike was really warm. Freeway and stop n go traffic in 80 degree weather, yet the fan did not come on until I shut the bike off. What is that?! I mean turn on sooner for god's sake - while it's running. But then the fan ran after shut off for a good 5 mins. It had never done that before. It always shut down after 2 mins. You could time your stop watch by it. I'm going to ride it a bit more to see if it continues this craziness before contacting E B R. Have any of you other 06-07 Uly owners with the E B R ECM notice this type of fan behavior?? Thanks. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
You need to build yourself an EG oil temp dipstick so you know just how hot your oil is getting. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/461500.html | ||
| Uly_dude |
I know what you're getting at EG. And yes, that little do-dad is on the list. But I don't think it was SO hot that it did the ol extended cooling period on me. Of course we don't have a temp guage, but I was moving pretty well, it was only 80 and it was only a 30 min ride. By using the right leg test, I'm pretty sure she wasn't completely melting down. I just think this new ECM is not right. Time will tell though. Besides the annoyance factor of the ran running so long shut off, I'm worried it's going to drain the battery enough to the point it may only give me one chance to light er up! | ||
| Uly_man |
I do not think the 06 bike has any fan "logic" to speak of. With my bike standing/running the fan would run at some point. Low to high speed and the same in traffic. Switch off the bike and "high to low" would come on or just low depending on the engine temp. Basic two speed control via temp. The odd pop on decel is of little worry but a lot and often is a classic sign of a problem. Like its running lean. One thing I noted about my 06 bike was that no matter how hot the bike got the oil cooler only ever got slightly warm. I do not know how it is controlled on a 06 bike but it is normally done with a thermostat in a manifold. The 2010 bike oil cooler works like it should and the engine is not trying to go "Super Nova" like my 06 was. | ||
| Tootal |
One thing to consider is that your engine is running a little richer now which equals less heat in a thirty minute ride. As far as running longer, I can't answer that except it sounds like they might have different temperature settings. | ||
| Buewulf |
I'll have an EBR ECM tuned for a stock '06 coming in next week, so I'll let you know (assuming the ECM cures my issues). I have never gone for a ride on my Uly in 50+ degree weather when the fan has not come on and stayed on, and it always ran for about 2 minutes at shutdown. So it shouldn't be hard to notice a difference if there is one. | ||
| Uly_man |
I am not convinced about the EBR-ECM or the work done on the basic HD maps with ECM-SPY. Its just my opinion but I think that there is something more subtle going on with the control of the engine with this bike. | ||
| Uly_dude |
There is in fact some logic for the fan in the ECM. This is proven by when 08 and newer Uly's get reflashed for the comfort kit, the fan now runs totally different(just like your 2010). I guess it might depend on how one defines "logic". Anyways, got er kinda warm today and the fan ran for 1 min 45 secs, so that's normal. According to the manual, the fan should never run more than 2 mins unless it's gone into total meltdown mode as I understand it. What I still don't get though, is why does the bike wait until you shut it off for the fan to start running, even at a pretty high engine temp? I would like to see that fan kick in sooner like when the bike is stop n go traffic or something. I know the motor doesn't suddenly get more hot once I shut it off. That fan, it'll be the the death of me yet! | ||
| Ratbuell |
Actually...your engine DOES get hotter after shutdown. It stops circulating "coolant" - i.e. the oil pump stops when the engine does. No cool oil flow = hotter engine bits, especially the heads (where the fan is). Pre-08 software does contain logic for the fan...sorta. 08-later software has an algorithm that includes engine temp and road speed to figure fan on/off timing. The early XB software references ONLY engine temp - there's an "on" threshold, and an "off" threshold. As far as I understand it, if you want more runtime out of the fan...lower your "on" and "off" points (or ask EBR to give you more aggressive fan logic for more runtime). | ||
| Eulysses |
Not only oil as coolant but no air flow. So fan "logic" on the older bikes is just temp sensitive. On my 09 it would light at lights and after shut off. With comfort kit it runs when running and shuts off at lights. Too weird. | ||
| Uly_man |
"There is in fact some logic for the fan in the ECM. This is proven by when 08 and newer Uly's get reflashed for the comfort kit, the fan now runs totally different(just like your 2010)." This might be true apart from the fact that a 08 plus bikes ECM prog is not much like a 06 bike and a 2010 bike ECM prog is nothing like either. The 08 plus bikes have bigger oil coolers as well which, with a air/oil cooled engine, is so VERY, VERY IMPORTANT. "Actually...your engine DOES get hotter after shutdown. It stops circulating "coolant" - i.e. the oil pump stops when the engine does. No cool oil flow = hotter engine bits, especially the heads (where the fan is). "Pre-08 software does contain logic for the fan...sorta. 08-later software has an algorithm that includes engine temp and road speed to figure fan on/off timing. The early XB software references ONLY engine temp - there's an "on" threshold, and an "off" threshold." Quite right Rat. The later 08 plus bike "map flash" makes the fan run at 15mph plus to force more air over an engine stuck in an enclosed frame. Works good and not noticed on a ride. The new fan "shroud" helps to direct more of the VERY hot air from the cylinder heads and as such makes for a cooler ass. The comfort bit. The fan runs on engine temp. No Logic is involved. The 06 bike and others, on standing may heat past a certain point and thats normal. Turn the bike off and the fan may come on. Again normal. This is called a "over run" and designed to cool a system that has lost its primary cooling which in this case is forced air. In other words it is a back up system to protect, as Rat said, the engine. Logic or not. Try this. Run your engine standing until the fan comes on. Switch the bike on/off a few times and you will find the fan does not run as much. Thats because the "over run" is timed from the ECM. | ||
| Uly_dude |
I WISH the fan came on only based on engine temp. It eventually does, but not soon enough for my liking. It's that extra bit of code someone wrote(the logic part) for the ECM to tell the fan to come on for 2 mins when the key gets switched off and the engine is at a certain temp. And this temp threshold happens to be lower than the temp threshold in my first sentence above. Those two temps should be the same. Drives me nuts. And yes, I've asked EBR if they would doctor these settings for me on the new ECM - they said they wouldn't. I'm not a big fan of the newer comfort kit fan logic either(under 15 mph, turn off fan). What if you're stuck in stop-n-go traffic and the bike is melting down? Makes no sense to me. But I'm sure someone much smarter than us programmed the ECMs a certain way for a reason(like the fan is too loud?) Anyways, I'm in EG's camp, where I think that right side scoop might be artificially cooling the engine temp sensor body. I believe that sensor should be relocated or perhaps insulated from the extra cool air blowing on it. Or remove the scoop all together. OK, I'm done doing this;  | ||
| Razz |
I remember hearing that the reason the fan comes on after shutdown is that since the oil is no longer circulating the oil in the head actually increases in temperature so the fan helps cool it | ||
| Ratbuell |
Razz is right. Hot oil in a hot cylinder head can "coke" or turn into dry carbon by cooking, blocking passages and causing issues. And that is why I let all my turbocharged vehicles idle for 2 minutes after a hard run, before shutting down. Turbos are expensive. So are cylinder heads. The comfort kit programming was in direct response to Buell owners bitching about the "annoying fan noise" - so they programmed it to run only above 15mph UNLESS A TEMPERATURE THRESHOLD IS EXCEEDED. So Uly_dude...you're safe. They thought of the stop-n-go bit for ya. Remember - the XB frame was designed with the VRSC motor in mind. Liquid cooled. 1125, anyone? Erik and his Elves were fully aware that shrouding an aircooled motor like this was going to cause heat issues...but when HD got hold of the Revolution motor and porked it up and caked it with chrome (making the powerplant weigh nearly as much as a whole production XB), Buell rightfully decided "ehhh...we're not gonna use that" and stuck with the Evo Sporty architecture. I highly recommend "25 Years of Buell", it details ALL of this. Pay particular attention to the date for the first fuel-in-frame, liquid-cooled Buell prototype build. And Uly_man? 08, 09, and 10 bikes are all DDFI-III. The only "major difference" is the addition of a second O2 feedback channel for AFV mapping, if memory serves. There are other minor tweaks, but they're just that - minor. Otherwise, '10 "comfort" programming wouldn't retro to 08 and 09 bikes. | ||
| Uly_man |
The comfort kit prog/system works even though I thought it would not. My 06 bike, even on low speed fan, was VERY loud and on high it was silly loud. My 2010 bike is much like a normal bike. The "plus 15 mph" is hard to hear even without ear plugs. "And Uly_man? 08, 09, and 10 bikes are all DDFI-III." Yes they are but only the 2010 bike has the front O2 sensor. The second O2 sensor is key to how well the 2010 bikes run. The ECM-SPY Guys experimented with this to prove that the bikes needed it to run at there best rather than using a "off set" front cylinder map and fuel metering via the rear O2 sensor. "There are other minor tweaks, but they're just that - minor." The addition, on the 08 plus bikes, of the idle control valve is also key to the evolution of the bikes running. If you go to the ECM-SPY site you will see that the prog of the early to late versions becomes much more complicated and powerful. This is because there is a lot more control of the fueling/mapping etc. "Otherwise, '10 "comfort" programming wouldn't retro to 08 and 09 bikes." DDFI-3 can take the new fan prog but DDFI-2 can not. The hardware fits any bike and helps cooling. I also think DDFI-3 has a faster chip and more memory as well. (Message edited by uly_man on May 10, 2012) | ||
| Froggy |
Yep what Uly_man says is correct. The 2010s even introduced a new fuel pump that has a ECM controlled pressure regulator. Lots of little changes over the years, with the biggest ones being 04, 08, and 2010. | ||
| Uly_man |
"The 2010s even introduced a new fuel pump that has a ECM controlled pressure regulator." Ah, now that would explain why it works the way it does. Thank you, Froggy. |
