| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
One duplicate photo above- the photo for the front combustion chamber should look like:  | ||
| Blake |
What engine oil do you use. Not suggesting any blame at all, just curious and looking for all the data possible. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Blake- I ran HD 20W-50 from 0 to ~5500 miles. I changed it at 100 miles, 1000 (dealer service), 2500, 5000 (dealer) and then switched to Mobil-1 V-twin 20W-50 at that time. Since then I've changed it at 2500-4000 mile intervals depending on how much I've been riding. I've always used the Buell OEM oil filters. The bike has around 29,000 miles on it now. I checked the oil level right after the knock began and it was right in the middle of the X's on the dipstick. I was interested to see that this is not an unknown failure on recent Sportsters. I remember reading an interview with Erik after the XB12S was released and he stated that the rod bearings were a limiting factor on these engines. In order to reliably sustain the redline RPM on these engines, they went to a silver-plated cage on these bearings. I've seen posts on this board and others by several Uly riders that had oil analyses done by a lab on their Ulys. They'd invariably get a comment back from the lab about "we don't know where this silver in your oil could be coming from". Apparently they'd never found silver in a UOA before. I wonder if that's the root of this problem? Maybe the coating gives up on some bikes due to QC problems or the type of oil used, and that leads to rapid failure of the bearing? I am going to at least write HD Customer Service and Mobil and see what they have to say about it. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
That's simply amazing! $2.99/lb for corned beef. Where are those papers from?  | ||
| Froggy |
I merged the threads, hopefully it didn't get ruined in the process!  | ||
| Hughlysses |
Looks good, Froggy. Thanks for fixing it. Skifastbadly- I just KNEW somebody would comment on the newspapers! | ||
| Buellerxt |
At 'quick' glance I actually thought that was your sandwich that you set down to take the pic, Hugh!  Yummy! By the way, I AM IMPRESSED! You are a skilled guy and are doing a great job documenting the tear down. I'm sorry you've had this problem, particularly given that you kept the bike stock and rode it sensibly. Very interesting thread. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Hugh- The more I read the more I am convinced that our failures are closely related if not the same. Same mileage. Same noises. Same rapid deterioration. My dealer told me it looked like the bike had been run with no oil but when I started tearing into it the swingarm was full of it. Same scoring on the cylinders and pistons. | ||
| Debueller |
Skifast, Same year of bikes, too. ('07, right?) | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Yep, same year. | ||
| Wormjello |
Hughlysses, silver is a common plating on the reconditioned F-18 engine and gearbox bearings we work with in the Bearing Shop. In our visual inspection criteria skating is a real and common form of damage. This has to do with the difference between sliding friction vs rolling friction hysteresis. I'm not a bearing engineer, I just take their word for it and know it when I see it. My Uly's rear con-rod bearing went out at 30K. I feel your pain! | ||
| Luftkoph |
this is all freaking me out man | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, one is a fluke, but now we're up to three.  | ||
| Teeps |
Since we got an "engine down." Anyone have experience with the after market cylinders, such as these?  Revolution™ cylinder and piston kits come complete with our one piece, all aerospace grade aluminum nickel-silicon carbide plated bore cylinders, complete forged piston kit and head and base gasket kit! Our industry leading lifetime warranty applies to all our cylinders! Now come and get’m! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Treadmarks put a 1250 kit on his Uly about 3-1/2 years ago- he's the guy to ask. ...and yes, the thought has occurred to me. | ||
| Bobbuell1961 |
Skifast and Jello. what oil are/were you running? Not trying to start an oil thread , just wondering. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Bob, I ran the officially recommended and priced Screaming Eagle Synthetic and change it religiously every 5K miles. And I mean religiously. I faced east, sprinkled holy water, didn't use milk and meat on the same cylinder, wore sacred undergarments, and piled up rocks in meaningful ways each time. | ||
| Bobbuell1961 |
Craig,ROTFL but not at your expense | ||
| Hughlysses |
Wormjello- I think I found a little technical info on-line yesterday about "bearing skate", or what they referred to in the brochure (by bearing maker SKF) as "smear". It apparently has nothing to do with the type of lubricant used (i.e.- NOT caused by using synthetic). The brochure says this type of failure is caused when excessive clearance occurs in the bearing. What happens is the rollers on the loaded side of the bearing work correctly, rolling between the inner and outer races of the bearing. However, the bearings on the opposite side of the bearing, with no load and excessive clearance stop rolling. As the shaft turns around, these non-rolling rollers come into contact with the inner and outer race and skid for a short distance until they start to spin properly again. It's this repeated stopping and starting that wears the rollers flat until you've got a real problem and the bearing fails. I have no clue if this is what caused my problem, or why it would occur in some bikes and not others. If the failure is due to bearing "smear", it could be excessive assembly clearance, sub-standard roller hardness, etc.? | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
My condolences on your findings. While the site was down, I was going to say that the scored camshaft was the smoking gun. I was also going to say just get a new cam and lifter. Obviously, I was very wrong. I would suggest finding a used engine from a wrecked bike. There must be a few XB12 engines around, right? | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Out of curiosity, I did a quickie fleabay search and did indeed find a few engines and found one that you should NOT purchase. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/09-BUELL-XB-12R-XB1 2-R-FIREBOLT-ENGINE-CASE-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZi tem1c186d1a8fQQitemZ120668887695QQptZMotorcyclesQ5 fPartsQ5fAccessories WTF LOL! I guess things could be worse? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Nate- I saw that thing. How in the hell do you do that to an engine case anyway? "A little JB Weld and it'll be as good as new!"  It looks like I can put my engine back together for around $1500, which is the same as the cheapest used engine I've seen on ebay. At least if I put it back together I'll know it's right, so I'm leaning that way. | ||
| Scooter808484 |
It looks like I can put my engine back together for around $1500, which is the same as the cheapest used engine I've seen on ebay. At least if I put it back together I'll know it's right, so I'm leaning that way. My thoughts exactly. Fresh rings, fresh cylinders, fixed up crank, your engine will be as good as or better than new as opposed to something that you have no history with whatsoever. | ||
| Wormjello |
Bob, I run Syn 3 and will be changing it every 3,000 from now on. The deposits in Hughly's head almost looks like the oil coked as in turbochargers or early BMW 259 engines. Hugh, we reject bearings for damage but do not investigate the causes of failure, that's one of the things our engineers do. Literally out of my pay grade. Putting it back together means take your time for options and improvements. XB9 domed pistons, CC the heads etc but definitely use the upgraded silver plated cage. Good luck! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Given the condition my cylinder walls were in, I'm thinking a lot of oil got past the rings in that ~100 miles of riding I did as the noise got worse. That may be where all the carbon in the combustion chamber came from. I didn't think to look down for white smoke as I was riding. In some of the earlier photos you will see an immense amount of funk I found in the rear intake port. My guess is that came from the factory crankcase breather arrangement. I switched to an open breather about a year ago so hopefully that will not occur again. | ||
| Tootal |
Well Hugh I guess I can uncross my fingers now!! I was really hoping you would find an easy cure. I was trying to comment but with the system down it wouldn't let me. As far as your cam, I would replace it and the lifter. If you can feel the damage with your fingernail then I wouldn't reuse it. It's a rule of thumb to replace both at the same time. As far as the cylinders, I would take them to a shop and have them measure them to see if you need .005" over or .010" over pistons. Get your pistons first then take them back to the shop and have them hone them out to match the pistons. Make sure they have torque plates on them when they bore or hone. Ask around and find a good shop, they are not created equal! Good luck, I think you're doing the right thing rebuilding yours, you know exactly what you have that way. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Tootal- yep, all the finger crossing and "Lord, if you'll just let this be a minor problem I promise I'll never..." didn't help.  The only problem with the cam is you have to buy a full set, and that's ~$240. As long as I'm buying one lifter, I might as well buy a set, so there's another ~$300 down the tube. Odd that there'd be damage to the lobe while the lifter roller is perfect. I'm waiting on some feedback on boring the cylinders. I'm hoping I can work with a single shop to supply the pistons, bore the cylinders, fix the crank, and fit the new piston pins to the rod bushings. BTW- the cylinders are scored as badly as they look. I only found one scratch that I could just BARELY feel with my fingernail, so I'm hoping the cylinders are salvageable. | ||
| Tootal |
Sounds like .005" over might do it but get your shops opinion on that. If your going to keep the cam then put it in a vice with soft jaws, end to end. Get a fine stone and stone the lobe until you can't feel it anymore. Then polish it with crocus cloth. If you're not familiar with it, it's like emery cloth that looks like there's just rust on it. It will polish it but will remove hardly any material. If you can't find anything local, PM me and I'll send you some. | ||
| Wormjello |
Hughly, have you ever noticed any signs of detonation? My old motor pinged from day one. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Virtually none. I can remember once getting a couple of seconds of spark knock when I lugged it taking off from a stop. The bike had only a few hundred miles on it at the time. Never again since then. |
