| Author | Message | ||
     Garrcano |
Last sunday 86ºF: Loaded with my wife, running between 75 and 80 mph, permagrin, all fine. Today's experiment: 12.00h 97ºF: Toll-hihgway almost steady 75 mph, after 29 miles FL/R/S 13.00h : Checked battery connection, it was loose. AFV=105.3 14.25h 92ºF: Toll-highway almost steady 75 mph (sometimes a little more for overtaking), after 113 miles NOTHING. 16.30h : Checked battery connection, loose again. AFV=110.8 (more fuel=more cooling effect=less engine temperature????). Each time I get to the toll I can hear the fan. In autumn it normally stops while I pay. Now it doesn't stop. Could it be a power management issue???? My Theory: The fan sure needs more then 30W of power, when the battery connection is poor, maybe there is not enough power for the fan, the light, the fuel pump and the ecm (which is controling/providing all the sensors with 5VDC). If the power for the sensors is fluctuating, the AFV regulation is poor (it doesn't increase with hot engine) which ends with a poor fuel mixture and the engine runs hotter till the FL/R/S. P.D. There were several cases of bad AFV values due to battery problems in the german XBORG. (Message edited by garrcano on July 07, 2010) | ||
| Etennuly |
I rode today at 98F. Fan on from five minutes after start. No problems at all. Running well, no FL/R/S. | ||
| Etennuly |
Rode twice today. Not far, but the temperature was 99F. Fan on, the bike is running great.....thank you fan!  | ||
| Etennuly |
How are you folks doing with this mod? I did another 150 flawless miles in the heat yesterday! I have an awesome bike! | ||
| Falcon2 |
After installing the switch, I have run it long, and hard. No skip spark. I can live with the CEL for now, but I am sure someone will come up with an easy fix soon. I love this site.  | ||
| Teeps |
We should be able to program the on/off parameters in the ECU. IE turn it on at a lower temperature. That would fulfill both needs, fan runs all the time, CEL is off. Just need to know where the data is located in the ECM. | ||
| Falcon2 |
If only it would be that easy, but I don't think so. This has stumped a lot of smart people for over two years. When I had skip spark, it happen over 70mph on a hot day, but when I slowed down to 30mph, I could hear the fan running. back to 70mph, and more skip spark? It would seem, it has to be more than just the temp that the fan gets turned on, but I have been wrong about this problem many times. I do know that I am not going to throw expensive parts at it any more, and for now I am very happy with the switch fix.   | ||
| Teeps |
Falcon2, Agree. But, the skip spark problem seems to be paradoxical in that to initiate skip spark the ecm has to think the rear head is hotter'n hell. But before hell temperature is reached the fan should be initiated. But it's not. So how can the ecm not run the fan but initiate skip spark; if not for a faulty temp sensor input? | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
You know, things under that seat get crazy hot. I'm surprised that the ECU can work right under those conditions. Remember that the original fans were roasting and so were the BAS? Nate's crazy new theory: Some ECUs are more sensitive to temps than others. Anyone try relocating the brains somewhere cooler? Imagine running your desktop at the temps these poor ECUs run at! | ||
| Etennuly |
Well the last time I had mine plugged into the VDSTS it said that the fan was not even coming on until 490F. That is like 30F over the perimeters for actual over heat, if I recall correctly. But it did come on at shut down. As far as the ECM dying in the heat, why is it then that the bike runs flawlessly under all other conditions. It seems like if the heat were killing it MANY things would go wrong, not just this same singular problem. I did another ninety miles yesterday with the temperature at near 100F, it was perfect again. I am becoming at one with this bike like never before.  | ||
| Etennuly |
Uh.....What is FL/R/S?? Seems like the dealer service department was right so long ago.....it was all in my head.....it does not do that.....we cannot make it do it.....  ..... !!!!! | ||
| Sekalilgai |
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| Ksc12c |
I've been watching the thread for awhile and finally decided to install the Fan over ride switch too. I promptly took the bike out and thrashed about with temperatures in the mid 90's. No Skip Spark so far. Kev | ||
| Etennuly |
It feels really strange to not have it show up and ruin your ride. It will take a long time to forget that it can happen.  | ||
| Teeps |
Anyone know the diameter and thread pitch on the ETS? | ||
| Etennuly |
Just measured it = 3/8" 16. | ||
| Jlnance |
Well it looks like I'm the newest member of this club. I'm not thrilled about that, but I do have a couple of datapoints that I think will be useful. I first noticed the problem about a month ago as I was riding home on I-40. I was cruising along at about 70 mpg, wanted to pass someone, and when I rolled on the gas the bike seemed to sputter and loose power. I rolled back off and all was fine. I tried it again to see what would happen, and it did it again. I had no idea what was going on, and it made me nervous because I was about to take off on a long trip. It seemed to be an isolated incident though, I could not make it do it again. So I take off on my trip, riding from NC to WI. The bike is fine. It's my ride for the IBA Saddle Sore 1000. Two 500 mile stretches, with 4 hours of sleep in the middle. For much of the ride, it's hot, and the bike is running 80 continuously. The bike is fine. After a weekend in Milwaukee, I set out for the UP. At the first fuel stop my CEL comes one when I start the bike back up. Since the bike is running fine, I guess that the light is because the exhaust actuator blew the fuse, that's happened before. But I was wrong. What had happened is the fan failed, and blew the fuse. So now I'm running with no fan, though I'm not aware of it at the time. I do another 300 miles that day. The next day I decide I want to come home. I leave at about 8:00 am, and head south. It's hot, and I'm running 80 on the interstate. I don't even eat, I just ride all day. I think I did 900 miles. All with no fan in 90+ degree temps, pushing the bike hard. NOT ONCE DID THE BIKE GO INTO SKIP SPARK MODE. Well the voltage regulator decides to burn out at 11:00 PM that night (perhaps that has something to do with the fan not running, I'm not sure.) I'm in Ohio with 400 miles to go. It's over voltaging and has taken out my headlights. So I get up the next morning, wait for the sun to come up, and set off sans headlights. I'm in the south now, and it is hot as hell. I suspect it was over 100 by the time I got into NC. Still no fan, and still not one problem with skip spark mode. I get the bike home, send it to my mechanic, who replaces the stator, VR, battery, and installs some HID lights that I had laying around. I get it back, take it for about a 60 mile ride in the heat of the day. It does just fine. It is at this point I realize the fan isn't running. So I order a fan, install it, and take it for a ride last night. Coming home, cruising up the interstate, it does the skip spark thing. It's dark and cool, probably about 80 (thats cool for July in NC.) It was doing it so badly I thought I might not make it home, but I did. So here is what I'm thinking. This has nothing to do with real temperature. The bike was a lot cooler last night than it was when I was running home a couple of weeks ago. Besides, if the engine was that hot, it would ping, and it isn't doing that. I've gotten it hot enough to ping before, sitting in stopped traffic, and it didn't go into skip spark mode. The ECM may think the bike is hot, but it's wrong. The main thing that changed between last night and the prior time I rode it is I now have a fan. So I'm suspecting this is caused by the fan. While that at first seems illogical, consider this. The current for the fan flows through the ECM ground. If the ECM is not grounded well, this will cause a voltage rise between the ECM and ground which will affect all the sensor readings the ECM is trying to make. Etennuly wired his fan on all the time. I assume he did this by grounding the wire which runs to the ECM? This would keep the fan current off the ECM ground, and prevent the voltage rise occurring. Here is an experiment for you all. The next time you're having this problem, pull the fan fuse, and see if it goes away. (Message edited by jlnance on July 22, 2010) | ||
| Teeps |
Interesting theory.... Apply Al Lighton's first rule of electrical troubleshooting: all electrical problems are ground related until proven otherwise; and it makes sense. | ||
| Garrcano |
Ok, here my last experience: Till 12th july sometimes I has Run-Skip and sometimes not (it isn't temperature depending, run fine with 107ºF one day, and the other with 96ºF not). So after observing my loosing battery connections I decided to change it. After 20 miles BANG, an other theory gone bad. To prevent, I installed the direct-allwayson-switch. The 13th I stated a tour with wife and luggage to Faro (Portugal, total 500 miles x2), stopping a night in Granada (about 375 miles from home). The first 300 miles were fine but in the last part the CEL got on, after checking it was: Code 13 (O2 Sensor) and code 36 (Fan, that's new for me!!!!!). I tested the fan with the switch and work fine. Next day I arrived to Faro with no problem without using the switch, but the next morning after 5 miles the fan didn´t start. I tried the switch and there was a delay on the start of the fan. Now when the fan and the bike are cold, the fan starts immediately, but when the engine gets a little warm, the fan don't start. When I start the fan directly it doesn't stop when the engine gets warm. This weekend I will change the fan, install a relay to reduce power consumption in the ECM and change the O2 sensor (taking the opportunity with the fan). P.D. ETS changed, wires rerouted and isolated, battery changed, grounds with new cutted threads and without Loctite, but with appropriate washers, O2 sensor connection changed, other type of oil, installed a mini fan for the ECM, timing checked, plugs changed, plug wires changed, connector 77 checked, etc. NO RESULT | ||
| Garrcano |
The question I always have in mind is: When the CEL is on due to the error code 36, does the Run-Skip-Protection of the engine work????????? H-D mentality: when you have such an important error code, you MUST stop the engine, so for what supervise the ETS. I know it's stupid, but I'm not sure so I drove back home with a car and the bike arrives tomorrow on a truck at home. | ||
| Jlnance |
I've looked at the wiring diagram in the service manual. The ECM has 2 ground connections through the B2 and B11 pins. I'll pull that connector off and see how it looks. | ||
| Jlnance |
There is nothing obviously wrong with either the connector or the pins on the ECM. Ground is second from the left. It doesn't appear any different than the other pins to my untrained eye.   Ground is the hole on the right side, both top and bottom row. No melting that I see.  | ||
| Etennuly |
Etennuly wired his fan on all the time. I assume he did this by grounding the wire which runs to the ECM? This would keep the fan current off the ECM ground, and prevent the voltage rise occurring. I cut what is the ground wire from the ECM to the fan motor(black/orange wire). I use a ground through a switch, on the wire to the fan motor. The wire out of the ECM is not involved, it is taped back. You made me think about something else though. With my original fan(died at 20,000 miles) the problem was not nearly as intense as it became after the new fan was installed. I would have to check back on that for sure, but if I recall it was a very intermittent problem with the original one and very frequent problem with the new(new part number) fan. Could just be coincidental. How many of you guys had it happen with the original fan? I am still having a great ride with the switched fan, with no running problems, just the annoying light on, but what the heck, it was on and flashing before! | ||
| Jlnance |
I cut what is the ground wire from the ECM to the fan motor(black/orange wire). I use a ground through a switch, on the wire to the fan motor. The wire out of the ECM is not involved, it is taped back. So the current for the fan is no longer flowing through your ECM ground. Excellent. Now when the fan and the bike are cold, the fan starts immediately, but when the engine gets a little warm, the fan don't start. When I start the fan directly it doesn't stop when the engine gets warm. This fan is failing like mine did. It would run cold but not after it warmed up. It eventually got to the point where it would take out fuses which is when I started noticing. That is a 10A fuse. I wonder how long I was putting that much current through the ECM before I noticed something was wrong. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Jim- could you do a workaround by installing a relay to control the fan? The ECM could control the relay, so that the fan still works like it should. Fan power could be supplied directly off the battery. The ECM would only see the minimal current needed to hold in the relay, rather than the full current load of the fan, which might eliminate the problem. | ||
| Jlnance |
Hugh, Yes, I think that would work, and I think someone here is doing that. As was mentioned, you lose the log/high speed capability, but that doesn't seem like a big deal. We still haven't determined that it is the fan. I need to try pulling the fuse and see if I can make it go away. I suspect that since I played around with the ECM connectors that it will be difficult to reproduce for a while. We shall see. | ||
| Garrcano |
On my new fan is REV D written. Testing with an external power supply it consumes 3.8 Amps. It seems to throw more air then the old one. (Message edited by garrcano on July 24, 2010) | ||
| Jlnance |
Also Hugh, if you use a relay, it needs to have a free wheeling diode across the coil to keep voltage spikes out of your ECM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_diode | ||
| Zac4mac |
Taking the fan current off the ECM sounds promising. It's a better fit explanation than simply heat related considering all I've read in this thread. I've been talking with Max in Service about this thread. Thanks for all the info so far. Zack | ||
| Hughlysses |
Jim- thankfully (knock on wood), I don't have the issue myself but it is an interesting problem and it'd be REALLY good to know how to cure it if it does happen. Good tip about the diode- I used to know about that stuff when I learned how to trouble-shoot the control systems on EMD GP-9 locomotives. LOTS of relays in those things. As was mentioned, you lose the log/high speed capability, but that doesn't seem like a big deal. I'd imagine a truly resourceful Badwebber could figure out how to retain that, with some sort of logic circuit and two fan relays, one with a resistor in the circuit. |
