| Author | Message | ||
     Etennuly |
A few more Uly riders from around the globe have sent me Pm's for this problem. I am still waiting to hear more back about their results. Chances are they are still out riding in amazement!  A couple have had other symptoms along with the FL/R/S so their results have varied a bit, but have noted that it does help. For those with a pure form of the FL/R/S, who have gotten back to me, have seen good results thus far. | ||
| Yamafreak |
I cut a hole in my seat pan were the ECM was rubbing, works for me.  | ||
| Florida_lime |
I checked with the shop about my 3 week old order for the O2 sensor and cam position sensor...... Uh, ahh, uh... It looks like they were never ordered, sir.  | ||
| Etennuly |
What, you wanted to ride this year?!??  No really, that sucks. | ||
| Etennuly |
I am impressed to find how many folks are following this thread. I am watching to see if this cure works for some long suffering Uly riders. I believe I now have gained several new friends through this thread. I wish everyone well with this "cure". I hope it does the trick for at least some of you. Some have had similar and or multiple symptoms, several have had EXACTLY the same problem for about the same length of time. They all seem to have started at about 12,000 to 15,000 miles and no matter what cures it, it is a temporary cure, as if the bike learns and compensates for the cure, to make sure the problem does not go away. Changing ECM's stock for stock or stock for race did not make it go away either. I have not heard if anyone tried an ECM from an '05 or an '07 model year XB 1200. So far my bike is doing well with the current change. I am going to get back in to adjust my 'fan on' setting to about 410F degrees. It does not come on until 490F now. That is about sixty degrees above spec. Something else to investigate. | ||
| Falcon2 |
Run skip, skip spark, or whatever you want to call it, I have had it for two and a half years, and like a lot of you have spent a lot of money and tried a lot of things. I made the changes Vern (Etennuly) talked about, and went on an 82 mile test flight. I-95, air temp 94, first 40 miles ran 80 mph as much as I could, ran fine. Pushed it up to 90 for the next 5 miles....skip spark. This time I can hold 78mph, before I could only hold 70. There is no bing so I will adj. it a little more, and try again. Vern thank you for the info, I will keep you posted. | ||
| Etennuly |
Well OK! Ken and I found out another repair that made us think it was fixed! Insert your favorite cuss word here__________!!!!! I went with a total of two marks of timing advance. My bike made a 750 mile journey on the slab at 80 MPH with only two or three instances of a FL/R/S. Then on the way to Homecoming it went another 500 miles with just a couple of instances that were minor, the light went off as soon as the fan kicked on. Day two on the way to the U-P of Michigan, it went back to it's old ways, but allowed me ten more mph than before so I could at least do near 80mph. Then came Saturday, higher temps, not so good, still could maintain 80 but more than just the light, and I could only get it to stop by laying down on the seat and tucking my legs in to be as aero efficient as possible. And then there was today! Ken and I, traveling separately had a bad FL/R/S day. The temps were in the mid 90's and the new black pavement had to be near 130 or so. Really f^%&$#* hot! My bike was failing me, a later phone call had Ken in the same boat many miles away. Mark and I went East by way of going West Saturday, a great journey for sure, as we were parting ways near Indianapolis Indiana we stopped. I had to either fix this thing or burn it to the ground. After talking to Ken, I think he was off to buy a lighter for his! Being hot, tired, and pissed, the looks and normal method constraints were out the window. I pulled the seat, and with Mark's input and help we changed my heated gear wiring into a fan switch of sorts. We found the black and orange wire in the first ECM plug was the switching power lead for the fan. So I cut the sumbich and we rigged it to the fused leads for my gear. The toggle switch broke while figuring it out so I broke off a peg and used it to plug the two leads together up at the bars. Just un-plug to shut the fan off. I went out on the cooking hot slab and cranked it up to 80 or so for another hour. The CEL stayed on as I suspected it would, because of cutting the fan link to the ECM. This thing ran great. No Flashy Light, no Run/Skip. Then I stopped for gas. I manually let it run for a while, then unplugged it while I pumped gas etc. I fired it up(taking no mercy on the beast) I plugged in the fan and cranked it back up to 80 until a rabbit went by me, so I laid back from the speeder and ran up over 90(on GPS) for about fifty miles. Wholly permagrin! This thing had not felt this good since it was new( at least in warm weather). I had to stop for a break, the slab was so hot even at 90 there was no relief from the heat. Back on the road and still not believing that it runs this good above 70 mph and above 70F degrees, I again hooked up with another fast rabbit to chase. My top speed(GPS) up a 4% grade for a couple of miles was 105. Not a sputter, cough, or hint of over heating. Did I mention Permagrin. The thing that I eventually noticed, is that that boiling-blistering heat that we all used to bitch about, that comes from under the sides of the seat, was back. I did not think I would ever miss that, but it has been gone just about the same amount of time this overheating problem has been present. So to conclude, by hot wiring the fan to run all of the time on a really hot day.....I got my Uly back! It comes with massive permagrin, and slightly broiled thighs. Is it fixed? Hell, I don't know, but for 420 miles at above 90F degrees and well over 80 mph I had the best time on this bike on the slab that I have seen since it was new! Given time this coming week I shall ride, pinch my self, ride some more, grin a lot, and ride some more.....if it goes like today did! | ||
| Ronmold |
Could it be that the ECM is having a grounding/heat problem because it has to control all the current from the fan? Maybe hot wiring fixed it not because it runs constantly but now the current is not flowing through the ECM. A relay driven by the ECM fan wire may fix the problem, although you would lose the 2 speed option. | ||
| Etennuly |
I don't know how that ECM controls the fan. All I can conclude it that it lost it's grip with controlling it a couple of years ago, a replacement used ECM had the same problem, several of the guys have Race ECM's that do it also. The engineered electrical control system for the fan has me at a loss. I'm not that smart. But, with a wire hooked to the battery telling the fan "you are going to run all of the time", has the bike running great on a 90F+ day, at over 100 mph up a long hill with heat rolling out from under the seat like it should, and used to do, I can say I am now happy about riding it. Not necessarily about what it takes to get it to run well, but I have a case of permagrin like that not seen in a long time. | ||
| Garrcano |
Ok, an other idea: Check the connector 90 (ETS one pin under AirCleanerSupport) or pin 9 on grey ECM connector. A higher electrical resistance in the wire connection can cause a higher voltage drop on the input of the ECM, which is traduced as an lower engine temperature (table on page 4-52). We are talking about 0.2 volts of difference, it's not much for a bad connection, but maybe enough for not starting the fan properly. (Message edited by garrcano on June 21, 2010) | ||
| Etennuly |
That is a good idea, I will revisit that. I was all over it a year or so ago when I installed the new ETS. On mine the o2 sensor wire was rubbed directly into the ETS wire. I wonder if that could have damaged the part of the ECM that makes the decision for fan on and off. However I changed my ECM for another '06 used one. It was from a bike that has never showed the problem. But then, it never sees the Interstate highways. Thank you for the input. | ||
| Sekalilgai |
yup as Vern said, the bike was doing it's thing again...though I wasn't riding the bike at the time (Lemon/Vamp). Keeping it at 70 kept the 'skip' at bay. Today I did get to try it out for myself and it was indeed possible to push it into fl/r/s though I could go WOT and actually have it 'reset' believe it or not. An inaccurately low reading ETS might suppress the fan coming on but I think will also delay the onset of fl/r/s since the same sensor seems to be used in either instance. I think there are two things going on when Vern shunts the fan to ground (and bypasses the ECU). The first, obvious, is that the fan is on all the time. Second is that the fan speed control is no longer a PWM signal from the ECU and it is run 'wide open'. One interesting comment Vern made was regards to the 'heat' that is now like it was in the old days....so perhaps one or more of the switching transistors in the ECU is 'cooked'. (I'm guessing they're not switching the 30A fan load with a single FET) Ha! late night speculation...I should go to bed. Meanwhile I've to fix the broken sidestand and get the rear-wheel bearings done on this bike that decided to keep the trip to homecoming 'interesting'. Will post my findings as soon as I get to her! | ||
| Garrcano |
I also have thought about damage at the ECM due to the electrical crossing. At the moment my bike hasn't done the run skip, so I'm not sure. IIRC itīs a 48W fan, so the output has to manage about 4A (not much depending on the circuit design). Does anybody know if the fan has with KEY ON the double speed function like on KEY OFF? If not and if the double speed function isn't important for you, maybe swapping the fan motor with a automotive relay, it's possible to drive the fan directly from the battery without handling the all the fan power through the ECM. Normally this type of relay needs an activation voltage higher then 9 VDC, but when they have toggled they stay active when the voltage drops. I suppose the ECM gives 12 VDC on high speed and between 7 and 8 VDC on low speed. Maybe it's worth a test. | ||
| Etennuly |
I am wondering if that wire shorting to another sensor damaged the ECM in some minor way that took out part of it's fan control ability also. I changed the ECM a while back with a used one. I now wonder if retracing that ETS wire, to be sure of no shorts, and then replacing the ECM with a brand new one would work. The used ECM I got may have been compromised before I got it. I found on a short ride today that I want to back off my timing a bit. On my trip I advanced it just beyond the first long mark on the timing plate. It runs super-duper up top, but it now is not as smooth on the bottom end. It still has not reached the ping threshold. | ||
| Florida_lime |
Insert your favorite cuss word here__________!!!!! !@#$% Sounds like yours began to run as bad as mine ALWAYS does. And why it remains parked in the garage. Maybe your on to something that SOMEONE can fix -- whatever happened to posts from anonymous ???? | ||
| Etennuly |
whatever happened to posts from anonymous ????  They likely gave up after 85 failed attempts to fix it, where most of the things that were done made a difference, usually making it a little better, but not being a fix. If you are gonna wait for a dealer or HD to figure it out, you may as well hang the bike on the wall of your garage and call it 'mechanical art'!  Sounds like yours began to run as bad as mine ALWAYS does. And why it remains parked in the garage. Oh feel not alone fellow Buell rider. My Uly has been at this stage many times over the past two years or so. We just have a longer not so hot season to get in some great riding!  | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Using an automotive relay would be a bad idea since the low speed is probably a pulse-width modulation to approximate a lower voltage. I would guess that there are a few MOSFETS in that ECU that can drive the fan. Perhaps one is bad? I would sure love to see one of these brains out of the casing! | ||
| Etennuly |
Someone took one apart and did a pictorial a couple of years ago. Should be in the archives somewhere. | ||
| Etennuly |
So, are there any opinions from the collective about trying to heal this thing with a brand new ECM, and of course a proper wire shake down for leaks and shorts and such from the ETS?  | ||
| Mnrider |
Yes,check resistance of wiring from ecm to ets and ecm to fan and check ecm ground and fan resistance. | ||
| Froggy |
Vern, I mentioned in another thread, have you ever done any datalogging to see what the ECM is doing? | ||
| Etennuly |
Froggy, I'm not equipped to datalog. I'm more of a collision and paint guy.  | ||
| Falcon2 |
I am set at one line of advance. took a ride to the dealer today, 150 miles, at 6:00 am it was 80f. Skip spark at 65mph. On the way home at 4:00pm, it was 97f, it would skip spark in every gear, I had trouble getting up to speed on an on ramp, and could only hold 55mph. Some one at the dealership said that when the 06 Ugly came out they received several up grades to the ECM, and would down load them when ever the bike was in for service. My Ugly did not have this problem the first year, and I remember Vern saying the same thing. Could it be one of the up grades did this to us.....It was a long trip home. | ||
| Mnrider |
Etennuly has proven on his bike it won't skip-spark when the fan is running. So anytime it's doing the skip-spark I would say pull over and listen for the fan.If it's not running then I would ground the fan wire or install a switch to ground on the bk/o fan wire at the ecm and try to get it to skip-spark with the fan running. I'm an auto tech and I fix these kind of strange problems almost every day so this is starting to really bug me that it's not getting repaired. I think HD dealers don't work on complexed electrical problems enough to know what to do,and don't want to get involved. | ||
| Florida_lime |
For what it's worth, scratch the Cam Position Sensor off the list of possible sources for the skip spark issue. Mine had the wire sealant at the sensor almost melted out, and with the temporary success Vern had with advancing the timing, I thought I'd give it a shot. I finished replacing mine after dealing with the Deutsch connector, and took it out just now. It felt a bit strange since I hadn't ridden it in weeks while waiting for parts, but it felt good. Like a Uly should. 90 degrees - 4 miles @ 80mph - Skip Spark  | ||
| Ronmold |
Can't you shut off the skip-spark in ECM Spy? | ||
| Sekalilgai |
http://www.jsonline.com/business/45370577.html chumming..... | ||
| Sharkguy |
Florida_lime have you tried a race ecm to see if it will stop the problem? Maybe there is someone on here that will loan you one to try.  | ||
| Etennuly |
If you were to shut the Skip Spark program off with ECM spy, you are asking the engine to just go ahead and over heat. That would likely be a destructive thing to do. The fan NEEDS to run. The ECM NEEDS to make it run when it is getting too hot, but the ECM is not telling it to run when it needs to and not for long enough. I hooked my bike up to VDSTS last month and it told me the fan was not coming on until 490F degrees. That is above the over heat threshold, which if I recall should be about 460F or so. The fan should come on at about 430F and shut off at about 385 or so. I rode about 30 miles today manually switching the fan. No FL/R/S. But I don't trust the results of any test anymore. The CEL comes on within 30 seconds of start up, and stays on. On the Homecoming trip the fan would come on moments after it would start the run skip. It would immediately cool it enough to turn the light off. Shortly thereafter the same scene would repeat. I spent a good deal of time laying down on the seat and reaching my left hand down by the oil filler to feel when the fan came on and off. I am starting to believe that the ECM lost it's way when the ETS and o2 wires were shorted together. But then again, I installed a used ECM that was not known to have the issue after fixing the wires, and the problem came back up after a while(not right away). Odd.....I do recall this happening with the original fan, but much more so after the new one was installed under warranty at about 20,000 miles. I was 600 miles from home when the original fan went up in smoke(literally). That was in August of '07 or so. I rode it home on secondary highways without the fan functioning at all, but still in place. The speeds were around 60 mph most of the time and the temperature was in the upper 80's. It never did Fl/R/S all of the 600 miles home, nor did it feel or show any signs of getting too hot. | ||
| Florida_lime |
Florida_lime have you tried a race ecm to see if it will stop the problem? Maybe there is someone on here that will loan you one to try ? From the other thread: "I was planning on swapping my ECU out with the help of Gamdh on my Easter weekend trip, but the bike never made it to his place. It was trailered in to the Macon Buell dealer." I don't have the equipment to reset my TPS after the swap. |
