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Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 09:38 am: | 
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Thanks Joe,
Mike, you may need to put them back on your bike for the trip so the saddle bags don't rub the tire.... |
Id073897
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 09:47 am: |
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The engine does warm up faster while riding...IN HOTSPOTS. If you warm up the engine PROPERLY, you get good, even heat throughout the engine allowing the bits and pieces to expand and swell (and SEAL) properly and evenly.
During idle, the flow of heat generated is too low to distribute properly, because the engine is designed to dissipate heat flow generated at full load, which is about 80-100 times higher than at idle. Therefore before reaching more distant areas, heat is gone, exactly as designed. So, if hotspot are created then while keeping the engine in idle instead of riding it. Also all play is designed for operating temperatures at full load, not idle load, because full load is the worst case that has to be taken into account.
Having the engine warm up in idle results in more wear, contaminated oil, waste of fuel and higher risk of failure as the time until all parts reach their operating temperature and play is artificially extended.
But do as you like, it's your bike ... |
Terrible1one3
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 10:34 am: |
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Well there are obviously two sides to this fence.
On one, there is the "You must let 2-5 minutes to warm up" crowd. On the other is "no warm up or maybe 2 minutes warm up is all that is necessary."
Being that it looks like everyone is spewing info second or third hand from whatever idiot they listened to at the shop or on the forum I chose to look up a proper source for the information. I went to the 2006 owners manual and pulled:
"The engine should be allowed to run slowly for 15-30 seconds. This will allow the engine to warm up and let oil reach all surfaces needing lubrication. Failure to comply can result in engine damage. (00181a)"
For 2010 Models:
"The engine should be allowed to run slowly for 30-60 seconds. This will allow the engine to warm up and let oil reach all surfaces needing lubrication. Failure to comply can result in engine damage. (00561b)"
Looks like Buell puts more importance on lubrication then heat, makes sense.
I also pulled this, but it was only in the break-in procedure:
"Avoid fast starts at wide open throttle. Drive slowly until engine warms up."
(Message edited by terrible1one3 on April 20, 2010) |
Id073897
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 11:27 am: |
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I chose to look up a proper source for the information. I went to the 2006 owners manual
Owner manuals are written by lawyers, not engineers. Therefore they contain legal, not technical instructions. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 11:52 am: |
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If I allow my '06 to warm up by my f$%#&*$ method it runs smooth right out of the gate.
If I fire it up and start out within 30 seconds it will always cough and pop about a mile out. If the temperatures are below 40F or so it will cough again at a couple of miles out and run rough at the first couple of stop lights.
I like smooth out of the gate better.
Books, who needs books, eh Gunter?  |
Mattmcc00
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 01:13 pm: |
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I have always warmed up my bikes before riding them (most of my earlier bikes had chokes  ) so I just got in the habit of gearing up as they warmed. I do the same with Uly.
Anyhow... I de-fouled my front plug again last night, only to discover that my back plug was now also fouled  So I de-fouled that one too (much easier than I thought, thx service manual!). Then I gave it the autocleaning throttle trick just in case, it farted twice.
Started her up and she cough a little and farted a bit but then calmed to a normal 1050-1100 idle.
By then the sun had gone down and I noticed that the headers were glowing hot red comming out of the engine about 2 or 3 inches?? dunno if this is normal or not.
Anyhow I took her out for a ride, around the country side and airport in a chilly 6 Celsius weather for about an hour.
When I got back I noticed that the fan turned on after I parked it for the first time since I had the ECM flashed. |
Id073897
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 01:35 pm: |
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f I fire it up and start out within 30 seconds it will always cough and pop about a mile out.
How long does it take to warm up your car? Will it pop and cough if you don't?
(And, no, don't need books, PC has acroread installed :-) ) |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 01:54 pm: |
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If it's a VW Bug with an aircooled engine, I bet it would.
If it's something modern, with a cooling system and a thermostat (like my 1125), I bet not. Although, even my '92 Wrangler with 4.0 EFI inline six will get crotchety if I don't let it warm up long enough.
Hm. '92 EFI with cam sensor for timing, TPS, multipoint injection, barometer read solenoid and MAP sensor instead of MAF setup...'06 Ulysses with cam sensor for timing, multipoint injection...similar tech, similar behavior. Coincidence?
I still contend that a slow warmup (on "low heat" if you will) is better long-term for the engine than a sudden flare-up of heat with the wick turned up to 11. Mechanical stuff doesn't like sudden change; materials don't like flash-heat, just like they don't like flash-freeze. Ever put cold water on a light bulb while it's on (like with a water gun)? what happens there? That's ALL temperature reaction - same thing happens to the engine materials, but instead of shattering like glass, metal gets brittle and gaskets dry up and leak if they heat-cycle too quickly.
And you're right. It is my bike, and I will ride it the way I see fit. I also sold 'em for six years...so I must not know what I'm talking about. And neither did any of the Master Techs I used to work with.
And MattMCC - you say your older bikes had chokes. So does your Uly, built into the EFI programming...and that's what was fouling your plugs. If you were starting it, pulling it into the garage, and turning it back off...the EFI never got out of the coldstart / add fuel / "choke" mode. It was running rich, resulting in fouled plugs. |
Mattmcc00
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 02:12 pm: |
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Ratbuell what your take on irridium plugs?
My plugs are now carbonated and in an overall really poor stated from having been fouled so many times and cleanned etc. so I should change them anyhow, and besides plugs are cheap.
I currently have some 10r12x on my 2008, I live in a cold & Hot climate (50F at night, 80F during the day). |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 02:46 pm: |
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I like the iridium plugs and I index them too.
I have never had a set of NGK's foul in my Uly |
Id073897
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 03:12 pm: |
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materials don't like flash-heat, just like they don't like flash-freeze
So a single combustion cycle will destroy your engine instantly, as piston and cylinder surfaces get heated up and cooled down hundreds of degrees within miliseconds.
Holy lord, I must be a lucky man, as I never had to brush away the remainings of my shattered engine after a day's ride. |
Mikef5000
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 03:52 pm: |
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So a single combustion cycle will destroy your engine instantly
Wow dude. We get your point. |
Tocino
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 04:14 pm: |
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By then the sun had gone down and I noticed that the headers were glowing hot red comming out of the engine about 2 or 3 inches?? dunno if this is normal or not.
They should not be glowing red. That is a sign of an extreme lean fueling issue. Yet you are fouling plugs at the same time? Is there a chance you have an exhaust leak that is allowing air in? |
Mattmcc00
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 04:27 pm: |
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Exhaust leak... hmm.. not sure.
Pipe do not seem to glow red anymore? It seemed to only have done it whiole idling after cleaning fouled plugs.
I will verify again this evening, I will drive it straight into the garage coming back from work, and close the lights and doors.
The red glow was eminating from the blue area of the headers. After riding for about 2 mins, the headers were all bronze, no glow, and no blue? |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 04:28 pm: |
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I totally agree with the Rat-man. Slow warm up fits the machine.
Matt, for the moment(until you get new plugs) you can carefully clean the center and ground electrodes with like 200 grit or finer sand paper, then check the gap. They will fire better if they don't have to do so through the glazed burned on fuel.
Gunter, we can compare notes at 100,000 miles, OK? |
Xbeau12s
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 04:39 pm: |
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I admit sometimes I'll take off right away almost before the 15-30 sec. the manual says to let idle (warm up) whatever. I do notice that when I stop and then take off and I'm turning the little "cough" can almost make you fall over. Now if it warms for just a tad bit longer and I ride a little longer before I stop it's not there. She's a finicky beast |
Mattmcc00
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 04:57 pm: |
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+1 on Xbeau12s |
Idaho_buelly
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 05:40 pm: |
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NGK DCPR9EIX Iridium...Noticeable difference over the stock plugs..Awesome! |
Richardbiker
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 06:41 pm: |
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By then the sun had gone down and I noticed that the headers were glowing hot red comming out of the engine about 2 or 3 inches?? dunno if this is normal or not.
This is pretty normal although very disconcerting. I've had both my 08 12R and 09 XT show their glow when idling in the driveway. Earlier posts have mentioned this also. |
Nobuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 09:08 pm: |
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The header pipes on my old BMW R100RS would always glow at night. It had 125K miles when I sold it so it did not hurt it.
I have been running the NGK Iridiums for about 7K miles. The low rpm response seemed to improve after they were installed.
Never have had a fouled plug. |
Tootal
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 09:14 pm: |
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Here is a link to a Joe Minton article. Joe is known as the Wizard when it comes to V-twin engines. He writes for American Rider magazine and his advice has always been right. Harley's, Buell's, VW's, and air cooled Porsche's are all a sandwich design which requires a warmed up engine to facilitate engine sealing. Great technical article, I'll let him explain:
http://www.ridermagazine.com/output.cfm?id=1021933
(Message edited by tootal on April 21, 2010) |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 09:45 pm: |
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Ratbuell,
I never said that I hotrod the engine immediately after taking off. I take it up to no more than 3 thousand rpm thereabouts for 5 minutes before going a bit harder on the throttle. I have always done the same on my 97' Electraglide with no ill effects. In fact this guy who was interested in my 97' Electraglide wondered when I had had the gaskets changed because there are no leaks. I told him that they are all original gaskets and it has about 45,000 miles on it.
I'm not hard on my bikes. My 06' Uly has the original fan and the original belt. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 07:37 am: |
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EG - that's a pretty good track record, and until about six weeks ago my '06 Uly was in the same state...but then I snapped a belt. Still have the original battery and fan, though 
Mattmcc - as noted above, I run the stock 10r12a plugs and have yet to foul one. And, I've run the stock ECM, the "race" ECM, and currently an EBR ECM. I see no reason to change my plug type. If I'd had problems, I'd probably have been doing more research....but since my bike runs so well as-is I see no reason to "fix" it. And...50-80 is not a hot-cold spread. 2-98 degrees (depending on the season) is a temperature spread! (and my Uly trucks right along, no matter if I'm at the "2" end or the "98" end).
For cleaning dirty plugs, I've also had good luck with the wire wheel side of a bench grinder, just don't point the electrode *into* the rotation of the wheel. Sideways, down, sideways the other way is my usual progression, then I re-gap and install. |
Mattmcc00
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 01:34 pm: |
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Thx for the advice,
Regarding the glowing headers: I drove my bike straight into the garage coming home from work and I closed the door and the light letting the bike continue to idle. At first nothing, then after a few seconds, the header started to glow red. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 01:51 pm: |
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Then after a few minutes you passed out and died of suffocation? |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 03:00 pm: |
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I haven't checked my own bikes that way...but I have read multiple accounts of glowing headers.
Perhaps the exhaust is also air-cooled? That, combined with the relatively thin walls on the pipes...maybe a little glow is not abnormal. |
Tootal
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 06:14 pm: |
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Perhaps the exhaust is also air-cooled? That, combined with the relatively thin walls on the pipes...maybe a little glow is not abnormal.
YUP |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 06:48 pm: |
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So, you guys let your bikes warm up at idle on the kickstand? I was ok letting my Harley do that, but I have not developed that level of trust in the Buell kickstand. I seem to have read on this board about bikes falling over while idling. Am I mistaken or is that an issue with these bikes? |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 08:43 pm: |
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Just don't point it downhill and you should be fine. |
Idaho_buelly
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 08:55 pm: |
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I have no problem w/ mine..09X  |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 10:40 pm: |
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Flat ground or uphill (slight) and you can warm it up the sidestand. If you have a side to side lean, make sure the sidestand is on the down-side of the angle; you want the bike to lean into the stand, not be vertical where it could fall to the right.
The S2, on the other hand....I hated leaving mine on the stock sidestand when it was turned OFF!! *That* was a problem Buell sidestand... |
Mattmcc00
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 11:10 am: |
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Pics of the fouled plugs
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Mattmcc00
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 11:21 am: |
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Removing left scoop to access the front plug made it a breeze.
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