| Author | Message | ||
     Mark_weiss |
Not to start a drawn out oil thread.... No brand names, no synthetic vs dino either. I normally switch to 10w40 for winter riding. Cold start temps are below 40F here. I use an oil that is "CH" graded, as recommended by Buell. While shopping for oil last week, I noted a definite trend for the CH oils to be graded 5w40. Anyone know if this will be an acceptable substitute? For me, for the next few months, easily through another oil change, cold start temps will be in the 20s and 30s. So instinct tells me that all should be OK. I'm also considering that as soon as the engine is warming up, the oil should be out if its 5w phase. I even block the oil cooler for the morning ride to work. Think that this stuff will be OK for the transmission too? The alternative is 15w40. Mark SE AZ | ||
| Etennuly |
I always stick to the Formula + for the transmission. The SM says 10-40 for the coldest number also. My personal experience tells me that it should be OK. But if a warm spell comes up where the temps shoot up to 70F+ I would think it could be too thin. I run all year also. I have several upper 20F starts over the winter. I run 20-50 during this period because it is not unusual to see 70F + day time temps during the winter here. I let it warm up well before touching the throttle, and it lives in a shed. If I have to ride when the temps get too low I will warm the bike with the shop heater before starting. I try to avoid riding below freezing because we have so many shaded hilly areas, black ice is a real problem. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
5W40 is the same as 10W40, with the exception that the lower number denotes a thinner oil at cold temps, but they should be the same at operating temp. The 5W40 is usually available in synthetic, so I would go with that. Shell Rotella T 5W40 Syn = $19/gallon at Walmart = good deal on good oil  | ||
| Johnboy777 |
I did a side-by-side cold temp viscosity test with the std. HD 20/50 and Syn3 20/50. Sorry, but I can't seem to find the thread. I left 2-oz of both in the freezer for three days, then poured them out simultaneously onto a large sheet of billboard paper placed at a 45deg angle. The Syn3 ran TWICE as fast compared to the std. HD oil....it was clear that the Syn3 showed greater viscosity in the cold. Based on that, I use Syn3 all year round - even when I rode a lot in the winter. YMMV. | ||
| Dennis_c |
what did your wife say about the oil in the freezer???  I know what mine would say and it would not be good. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
""what did your wife say about the oil in the freezer???"" As luck would have it, she was gone for the weekend and missed out on me curing a muffler in her oven, as well. . | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Here's the photos from the test I ran - as I recall, these shots were 3sec-6sec and 15sec. Fresh out of the freezer!     (Message edited by johnboy777 on November 30, 2009) | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
i had a 15w40 dino in my Uly for about the last 1000 miles and went back to a 20w50 even in colder temps, because the fan was ALWAYS running after the bike warmed up (except it would shut off at stops due to the comfort kit flash) With 20w50 I'll just be sure to let the bike idle for a few minutes before taking off in cold weather. I've been riding it in high 30* temps for the past couple days with the 20w50 in it and see no problems. The 15w40 making it run hotter didnt worry me enough to change oil instantly, but i still dont like the idea of the bike running hotter after warming to operating temp. btw both oils were dino - the 15w40 was Castrol Tection Extra (CH rated) and the current 20w50 I'm using is Valvoline VR1 (CD Rated) The CD rating is not included in the manual recommended list, but is the same as all other "C" ratings except CD hasn't been used since 1959. My CD rated oil can legally have more zinc content than newer ratings. Zinc protects the valvetrain and destroys catalytic converters. I like protecting my valvetrain and don't have a cat to worry about on the bike.. | ||
| Arcticktm |
I wouldn't worry about running the 5W-40 diesel (CH) syn oil in winter at temps you mention. The upper number will protect you, until the oil (viscosity improvers) breaks down, and that isn't likely using diesel oil in a motorcycle. I like Johnboy's test, though, as it shows that even higher base weight oils in a synthetic formula seem much thinner at cold temps. That's why I do not lose any sleep about running synthetic 15W-50 all year long, even in temps around freezing. I would not be likely to change my trans oil. Just let the bike warm up a little more before you jump on, and it should all be good. Remember that the lower number (5W in your case) represents the base stock of the oil, and the higher number (40W)is the effective viscosity that the oil attains at higher temps due to the viscosity improver additives in the oil. I forget the actual temp, but seem to recall that the higher number is supposed to be measured at about 100C oil temp. Don't quote me on that, though. | ||
| Thunderbox |
That is correct. The lower number is the viscosity at 0C and the higher number is at 100C. | ||
| Mark_weiss |
Thanks for all of the feedback. I feel pretty safe with the move to 5w40. 28F this morning. Mark SE AZ | ||
| Tootal |
Trying to get dyno juice to act differently is caused by the viscosity improvers. They are like little springs that expand when they warm up. The only problem with oils like 10w40 and 5w40 is that it takes so many of these little springs to do it they take up room for the actual lubricant. In a lubrication seminar I went to the engineer was explaining how 10w40 was the worst oil you can use because of how many viscosity improvers it contains. 20w50 ok, 10w40 bad. A 15w40 diesel oil would be better. Now when you go to synthetic then all that goes out the window as most of those numbers are for marketing as most synthetics flow much better at colder temps. Just passing along what a lubrication engineer was preaching. Personally I run 20w50 Amsoil year round. With a ball bearing engine like the Buell, it really doesn't matter too much, IMO | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
(DISCLAIMER: Not a petroleum engineer) Tootal, I think the disadvantage of the viscosity improvers is present when the motor oil is shared as a gearbox oil. The shearing action of the gears wreaks havoc on the long-chain molecules that uncoil when the motor oil is warm thus detsrotying the hot temp viscosity. I think it is not so much of an issue when used as a motor oil in the HD sourced engines. | ||
| Blake |
Neither number is actual viscosity. It is a grade # assigned by the SAE. See the chart below for actual viscosities versus SAE crankcase and transmission oil grades. Viscosity improvers are what break down in conventional oil, thus the advantage of the inherently high viscosity index synthetics. Never use a conventional 10W40 engine oil if you can help it. It employs the most viscosity improver additives of any oil and thus breaks down more rapidly than any other engine oil.  | ||
| Blake |
Better chart...  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Anyone know what ATF type F is? Thats what I run in the dirt bike transmission (a two stroke) and it works pretty well (and is dirt cheap). I always wondered where it fell relative to gear oil and engine oil viscosities... | ||
| 7873jake |
Totally off the cuff here but I think I recall from my KLR days that ATF type F is supposedly between 7.5w and 10w depending on the manufacturer. It could be a few points higher even, if I recall, because it isn't graded/weighted to the same standards or specs of regular oil. Again, going off of recalled internet myth data from when I owned the KLR back in the mid-90's. Some owners would report feeling differences in oil weight between manufacturers of ATF-F in the forks, i.e. Castrol might feel more thick than the Mobil1 stuff which supposeldy had a published 10w. I used it in the forks on the KLR as an alternative to the fork oil because it was cheap and always available 24hrs a day at that biiig store down the street. Never had any problems huckin my 6'3" 235#'s around on it. I think this might be the first time I've posted anything that didn't begin with the word "Does" or "Is" and doesn't end in a question mark...damn, I'm buyin' myself a beer. | ||
| Blake |
A google search produced the following... AMSOIL Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)That would put the above Amsoil ATF square in the middle of a 20W crankcase oil as far as viscosity goes, not too far from a 15W30. Their ATL type fluid is slightly less viscous... AMSOIL Synthetic Fuel Efficient Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATL)In the range of a 15W20 crankcase oil. More info at... http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/710838 | ||
| Reepicheep |
Perfect, thanks Blake! I think the factory KDX oil was supposed to be 15w30... Good to know I am at a neutral starting point. Dragging clutches are a chronic KDX problem, so I am thinking of trying a thinner oil. | ||
| Etennuly |
Johnboy, You did the freezer test. Good result, I'm satisfied with what you did. Did you try the other end of the scale? Like putting some in a metal pan and running the wife's oven up to say.....325 and pouring that oil out in the same kind of test? I'm curious, but my wife is always home when I can try it(she knows I don't bake anything). | ||
| Tootal |
Hey Vern, why don't you stick it in your campfire next year, or is that what you were doing this year!!  | ||
| Etennuly |
stick it in your campfire Greg, It was not me sticking things in the campfire. I do not need to  . No way do I promote the use of girl-scout waters into a good campfire. They were just showing off to those of you without chairs! I was at that fire initially because in my haste to lead a great group of out of town Buellers to TWO, I forgot to load up my own damn beer!  They offered, so there ya go! It is because of those beers that I do not remember what substance they were putting in the cans that made it flair up so well. Was it oil?  Given all of that, the oil would need to be poured out in a controlled manor at an equal heat to complete the test. | ||
| Johnboy777 |
Johnboy, You did the freezer test. Good result, I'm satisfied with what you did. Did you try the other end of the scale? Like putting some in a metal pan and running the wife's oven up to say.....325 and pouring that oil out in the same kind of test? I'm curious, but my wife is always home when I can try it(she knows I don't bake anything). Hi Vern, No, i never felt compelled to test the heat range of both - I've read that syn oil can tolerate heat better, and seldom break 190deg (w/ EG's dipstick gauge) with my FAT fuel map. I was mostly concerned with cold start up, as I used to ride in the winter. Syn3 appears to have twice the viscosity of dino under similar cold conditions...YMMV . | ||
| Tootal |
Given all of that, the oil would need to be poured out in a controlled manor at an equal heat to complete the test. Forget it then, if anything I believe everything was out of control by that point! | ||
| Etennuly |
I know nothing!  |
