| Author | Message | ||
     Stevem123 |
Well I have a laptop now and got the cable from American Sport Bike and I want to do some playing but first a few questions from those in the know. First off my 06 is fitted with the factory race muffler, factory race ECM, modded airbox cover and K&N filter. The bike ran fine over the last 25-30K miles and has lately begun giving me some wierd symptoms. I did all the grounding fixes, replaced the spark plugs and the wires and it still wants to act funny sometimes. Mostly when cold and sometimes after a short shutdown like when stopping for gas it will not want to idle and will even stumble from start until it warms back up to full operating temp. The Race ECM maps are stock and I have done the TPS reset more then once to no avail. I did notice that the AFV was at 134% and thought that was a little wierd so I reset it to 100% but have not ridden it yet to see if that makes a difference. I'm wondering if maybe the oxygen sensor is getting flaky and causing my problem. I guess I need to do some data logging runs and try to analyze the data to figure out what's going on but I was hoping someone here might have had the same thing happen to them. I was also hoping maybe someone here has a good set of tweaked fuel maps that is working well for my setup. Anybody have any ideas? I'm also thinking of going to a wideband O2 sensor and wondered if anyone else has gone that route and how it is working for you. BC Steve | ||
| Thunderbox |
at 134 AFV I suspect you may have an intake leak. Its adding a lot of fuel for some reason. O2 could be the problem but they are pretty reliable. | ||
| Rotorhead |
I have great results from performing the steps in this thread. http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums/showthread.ph p?t=5176&page=9 a ton of info to sort out so read and do slowly and it will make your bike run great. 1st common mistake is TSP resets on a cold engine. 2nd Try to tune the engine on like weather days. Baro pressure really effects the tune. You can barrow a map from someone but it really is what there engine is like and there riding style. There is allot of pride in figuring it out yourself and what caused your 134 AFV. | ||
| Rotorhead |
quick update!! Gunter no longer has the ecmspy2 software available to download. | ||
| Stevem123 |
Umm, I thank you for the responses. I have checked for intake leaks and didn't find any so I am still puzzled about the 134 AFV. I guess I missed out on some posts so what was the difference between ECMSPY and ECMSPY2? BC Steve | ||
| Stevem123 |
Updated confusion and observations. I could not think of any other reason for the high AFV (134%)so I bit the dust and replaced the intake seals. My slow starting issues went away and the motor seems to run much more smoothly so they must have been leaking a little. Now for the confusing part and this is going to be a sort of long read so have a sit. I still was not able to get the AFV to come down after the initial seal replacement and a nice ride to let the ECM do it for me so I tried setting to 100% with ECMSpy and here it gets nasty. With AFV set to 100% the bike will not idle and pops, spits, sputters and runs like total crap. Keeping the revs up around 3K to let the AFV reset itself and finally after about 5 miles the bike settles down and begins running good again so I go back home and hook up the laptop and the AFV is back to 135%.....WTF? So now I'm digging into it and notice that when the bike is cold the O2 readings look good while the motor is warming up and running in open loop. Just about the time it gets to operating temp it goes into closed loop and the O2 sensor readings go all over the place? I think OK the O2 sensor is flaky so I replace that with a brand new one. Wrong...same symptoms. Even when I let the bike get to full operating temp the O2 never settles down. I shut the engine off and wait till the fan switches off at 150C then restart it and watch the O2 again. This time it runs in open loop and the O2 sensor readings are good again for about 45 seconds then the ECM goes back to closed loop and the O2 readings go whacko again. I thought well maybe the ECM is flaky so I shut the bike down and put my stock ECM on and plug in the exhaust actuator so I don't get a code for that and repeat the same test at idle from cold but first thing I do is a TPS reset and fire the bike. I get the same symptoms with the stock ECM so that's eliminated as a possible cause. Back to square one. I then decided to check all my grounds and that's all OK. I then hook up my fluke to see if maybe the laptop is misreading the O2 sensor somehow and I get the same readings with it also so no problem there. Next I try jumpering the O2 sensor straight to the ECM input thinking I might have a break in the wire harness that opens when things get hot but nothing changes there either....I must be chasing a ghost. All these observations have been with the engine at idle in the garage and my only conclusion is that the ECM must have built into it's programming to only read the O2 sensor under certain conditions that I cannot see while at idle at full operating temp in the garage. If anyone else can confirm this for me I would really appreciate it because I wasted a whole day screwing around with no real result. I took a look at my 2001 S3T and it reads the O2 sensor all the time at idle even when at full operating temp. As far as the AFV goes the bike runs great with it at it's current setting and I guess the only way to bring it down will require adjusting the fuel maps. I'm about to leave for a long road trip in a couple days so I'll leave it as is for now and play with the maps later. The bike has always run good so I'm not too worried at this point but I sure would like to know about this O2 reading crap that's different from my 01 tuber. Sorry for the long read. BC Steve | ||
| Glenn |
Hi Dave, I'm curious about you mention of setting the TPS warm. The shop manual doesn't say that it is required and it doesn't seem like you are going to get any difference in the throttle plate position. After you rotate the throttle idle cable to get 5.1, you do have to set the final idle RPM after the bike has been warmed up. This always increases my TPS position a little higher. | ||
| Froggy |
Right from the service manual (03 XB9R was all I have on me):
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| Glenn |
Yes, my step #10 says the same for a 2007 XB12X but that is after the 9 steps to zero it and set it at 5.2 - 5.6 degrees. Step #11, "set idle to 1050-1150 RPM. Just checking to make sure I haven't missed something or this is tribal knowledge to get a better reset. | ||
| Froggy |
Yea but I have noticed that its better to have the bike warm from the start, the bike needs less idle adjustment after getting the TPS zeroed. Or you can be like me and run at 750rpm. | ||
| Wheelybueller |
I believe the o2 reading should bounce around,constantly searching for its "Happy Place",constantly making adjustments,if static Id be worried | ||
| Blickdander |
Steve, I must conclude that the AFV keeps going to 134 'cause the engine needs 34% more fuel than the stock map. Hence, it runs like crap until the AFV is updated 'cause it's too lean without the AFV update being applied to the fuel map. I'm thinking you have low fuel pressure (fuel pump/wiring issue) or an injector problem. My $0.02 | ||
| Snojet |
A little off the subject, and possibly mudding the waters about "Stevem123" problem(s). In regards to the TPS reset.... About a month back or so, I did a search on TPS resets. Found an old post. "Threadmarks" posted how he performed the TPS reset. I followed those directions listed below and I think my bike is in a happy place. Here is the post... Treadmarks Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 07:30 am: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Do you think it's possible a plug wire wore through at 1500 miles? Yes, they can. Mine did. Get some magnecor wires, you will not regret it. Guys, Here is the deal on the solid TPS reset. Think of the TPS as a spring loaded pot. It sends a voltage signal to the ECM and it adds fuel accordingly. Very simple really. The entire process is actually based on the starting point of the TPS in relation to the throttle plate. The TPS has two plastic index tabs that must line up with the tabs on the throttle plate shaft. It seems most TPS sensors are installed straight up from the factory and this is ok for a while. After the bike is broken in, these tabs get a small amount of wear on them and they are no longer properly timed with the true zero of the throttle plate. This is when everyone runs to the stealer to get their TPS reset. It is the combination of wear on the TPS tabs, and lack of technical proficiency of the techs that seem to always provide mixed results. In order to be certain you have a true zero try the following: With your air box assembly and base off, the TPS sensor is right on top of the throttle body. If your TPS has two orange dots, you have the new revision with the vertical alignment tabs. This procedure applies to the old style as well. Adjust both throttle cables so sufficient slack is available. Back off idle adjustment cable until the throttle plate will snap shut without touching the idle cable stop. With a scribe, mark the TPS position by scratching a single line from the throttle body to the TPS. This will serve as a reference point just in case. With a 7mm open end wrench, remove the two TPS mounting bolts and remove the TPS from the throttle body. Clean the debris from the back of the TPS and the side of the throttle body. Apply a small amount of high temp silicone grease to the tabs on the TPS to minimize wear in the future. Replace the TPS but leave the mounting bolts slightly loose and rotate the TPS full left (counterclockwise). Insure the throttle plate is totally closed, then rotate the TPS until you feel the spring make contact with the alignment tabs on the throttle plate. Rotate the TPS slightly clockwise to preload the mechanical zero position and secure mounting bolts. Most of you will notice that according to your reference marks, your new position is just slightly right of the old position. Now your TPS and throttle plate are truly aligned, without play. Connect all wiring and perform a TPS reset, just like the manual states. Now you have a solid TPS zero. Ride and feel the difference. I have no more sneezing or lean like surging. (I have been told that this procedure is in the manual somewhere. I just had to learn the hard way, as usual). All your TPS are belong to us. (Message edited by treadmarks on September 25, 2007) | ||
| Tootal |
I think blickdander might be onto something if your intake is truly sealed. I went through several intake seals till I got some to actually work. Pull your scoop and right side cover off and spray with WD40 and be sure your not leaking. Did you use stock seals? Try genuine James blue silicone seals from Dennis Kirk. Much better design than stock. | ||
| Stevem123 |
WOW!!!Finally! I rode 500 miles south to the mojave desert town of twentynine palms. Checking AFV all the way and when it got really hot the AFV would go up to 149.2% then settle to 142.5% as temps cooled in the evenings. So I figured the system is working but the fuel maps needed adjusting. I finally got the guts to do a data logging run with ECMSPY and then spent some time with Megalog VE analyzer and looked at the calculated fuel maps versus the stock fuel maps. The changes were significant but not totally outrageous based on how the AFV was running. So I grit my teeth and loaded the calculated fuel maps, saved the new EEPROM file to a different name and then burned the new EEPROM with updated fuel maps into the ECM. I fired the bike without resetting the AFV to see how it would idle. It did idle but a little rough so I did a running reset of the AFV to 100% and WOW! The idle smoothed out perfect immediately. It wouldn't even idle with the AFV set to 100% before I changed the fuel maps. Even better yet, the bike seems to run better/smoother and I believe it even runs cooler as the fan didn't run nearly as much as it would have before. The O2 sensor data even looks beter now. Re-checked AFV after riding it some and it's spot on at 100%! I am totally stoked! Gunter and Phil Tobin both deserve medals and free beers for life! BC Steve | ||
| Rotorhead |
The first time burning the ECM is the scary part. Now your hooked and will tune the bike all the way home. Do some runs at given RPM ranges that hit the local speed limits, 25 35 45 55 65 75 mph and look up the Treadmarks square idle thread. If you think it is smooth now square it and you can shave in the mirrors at idle. | ||
| Tootal |
I just went crazy too. I had tried uploading the 07 files but it wouldn't start without cracking the throttle and then when it warmed up it was at 1500 rpm. It ran like crap at low rpm but ran great at wot. After several attempts I gave up. The other day, after hours of reading at buelletinboard.com I finally took my 06 map and changed the tps numbers on the left side and got rid of the 0 column and made it 900 and then changed a few more and added another in between. I smoothed out the numbers a little, added some more fuel at low throttle tps and mid rpm. That's where my biggest problem is. Cruising through the neighborhood at 30 mph the damn thing lurches and surges. I then took the wot numbers from the 07 map and put them in the 06 map. I then burned it into the ecu and wow, what a difference. Take off is smooth, wot is amazing. It starts and idles at 900, cold or hot. It still is not perfect at those 30 mph cruising speeds but is improved. I think I've gone as far as I can using guess work. Time to learn how to datalog. In the mean time, it's still a major improvement! | ||
| Rotorhead |
Spend a day datalogging on your favorite road or the commute to and from work and you'll love the results | ||
| Sanchez |
> It starts and idles at 900, cold or hot. What's the advantage of setting your idle low? It's normally supposed to be at 1050. | ||
| Tootal |
Because I likes it there!  It just sounds right there. On my Big Twin I like 800 rpm. It's just where the motor sounds right. To me anyway. I filled up with gas today and saw 46 mpg. That's one more than usual so it runs better and gets better mileage. Such a deal! Of course just when you think you've neared perfection the turn signals quit working and when I turn the forks at one point the headlight goes out!! Time to strip it and run my own damn ground wires! There are some things Harley does much better than Buell. Just sayin! (Message edited by tootal on June 30, 2009) |
