| Author | Message | ||
     David_e |
Just destroyed my second set of rear wheel bearings today. the first time they were replaced under warranty with the orange seal versions which I heard were not the good ones. This frustrates me very much to say the least. I've never gone through one set of bearings let alone 2 sets on any other bike I've ever owned. Does anyone know where i can buy a good set of bearings that will last with out having to take out a loan to do it? | ||
| Etennuly |
I would look into whom has been putting the rear tire on before spending a bunch on more bearings. Improperly torquing of the rear axle can kill them. Of course you need a set of good ones to start. Have you had rust showing on them? Water in the hub seems to be a real problem. My failed within 500 miles of a deep water crossing, at over 33,000 miles. | ||
| David_e |
I'm sure there is water in them. I ride almost year around here in Western WA. You're right it could have been a torque issue. I installed the rear wheel myself using my built in torque wrench. Stupid huh. | ||
| Etennuly |
That is one job that it is required to do according to the book. Torque to about 35 ft lbs, back it off a couple of turns, then torque to 50 ft lbs. The use of anti-sieze is important also. | ||
| Hughlysses |
David- You can buy the new black seal bearings from your dealer for about $30 a pair. AFAIK, nobody has reported a failure with these improved bearings yet. I've got about 10,000 miles on a set of Koyo bearings with no problems (~$40/pair?); some have had good results with SKF's (~$60/pair?). If/when I have to buy another set I'll go with the new factory bearings. Improved bearings plus proper torque and hopefully you won't have any further problems. | ||
| Teeps |
To add, if you suspect the axle was over torqued. I would replace the internal bearing spacer. As an excessive thrust load can cause this type of bearing to fail too. | ||
| Michael1 |
Well, I just went through my third set in 15,000 miles. No pressure washing, just normal Uly riding (90% on/10% off road). This time, I cut them open and inspected them. I had some warranty work done at the dealer back in the fall (last day of warranty too). Seems the "tech" who put the rear axle back on decided tighter is better. I had the wife holding the front of the bike, while I was boucing with all my weight (235lbs) on a 24" breaker bar. And it still wouldn't budge. A 3' pipe helped, but I still have to lean and bounce on it. (And yes, the pinch bolt was completely removed). The heavy installation torque, preloaded the bearings big time. Heavy path ways on the races, balls were blue (insert joke here). The kicker, my hub was full with over a cup of water. When the bearings were replaced the second time they never cleaned up the bearing seats. Now that I did that, they fit nicer. The brake side bearing, inboard, looks like it spent time in the ocean. Looks like it's covered with barnacles. Glad I checked them, as I am about to leave for a 2000 mile trip tomorrow. Tossed in a set of Koyo's and have a set of SKF's as back up. As I work in the bearing industry, I just don't trust the KBC brand (umm... Korean Bearing Company). To me, there is nothing special about them or even seal design. Just a different brand over the NTN Tawains. | ||
| Froggy |
I wonder how Treadmarks is doing with his German FAG bearings. | ||
| Tootal |
Funny you mentioned Treadmarks, isn't he the one that was smart enough to drill a hole in his rear wheel hub to let the water out? I've mentioned this before but I'm going to do it again, those with multiple bearing failures should measure the distance between the side surfaces your bearings press into. In other words, the distance between your bearings when they are fully seated in your wheel hub. Now measure the length of the spacer between them. The dimension should be the same, if not then you are side loading the bearing and it is going to run hot, break down the grease and ultimately fail. The wheel bearings in my old 91 FLHS lasted 100,000 miles! Then again they were time tested Timken tapered bearings. | ||
| Rwven |
Anyone know where I can get my hands on a busted rear wheel? I'd like to see if there is a way to machine out the hub to take a set of Sportster double row bearings or something like them.. | ||
| Michael1 |
There isn't enough room for a different set of bearings. I checked to see if I could machine the pockets deeper and add an external seal. No dice. There is about 5mm or 6mm, I can't remember. To get it done right, you would have to change the casting on the wheel. The hub needs more meat. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Michael- I think it's just possible it could be done, but it wouldn't be easy. Bore through the ID of the rear wheel with a slightly increased bore and remove the shoulders on both sides. Make a steel insert that you press into place in this new bore with high strength press fit Locktite. The insert would have new shoulders machined inside that would allow wider bearings. You might even be able to provide sufficient width to allow the installation of separate seals to make things even better. If anybody's got a wheel that a failed bearing screwed up, that would be the perfect candidate. The $100 question is if there's enough meat in the wheel hub to tolerate the slightly increased bore required for the new insert. | ||
| Rwven |
Yeah, I was thinking it would probably have to be sleeved. | ||
| Dfishman |
Replace the spacer & torque it proper | ||
| David_e |
Thanks for all your help guys. I'll install new bearings and torque them properly and I'll check the internal spacer as well. Is there a thread here that explains the process for wheel bearing changes? Thanks again. David E. | ||
| 12bolt |
If someone could come up with some kind of dust cap that would fit on the stock wheel I would pay for it without having to think about it. There has to be a way, I just don't have the time or skill to come up with it  | ||
| Arcticktm |
Teeps- I don't get how the spacer would need to be replaced due to over-torque of the axle. Unless it was crushed/visibly damaged, it is just a spacer, right? The bearings take the actual side (thrust) loads. As long as the spacer is still the right length, and the end faces (touching the bearing inner race) are in good shape, seems like you would be OK. I used to think putting a drain hole in the rear wheel was a bit extreme (even after I replaced my RR bearings due to apparent water damage), but I admit to having second thoughts recently... | ||
| Hughlysses |
The spacer is relatively thin-walled aluminum. It's been speculated one good over-torque could permanently distort it. I'd assume they have the allowable dimensions for it listed in the shop manual. Best thing would be to mic it and check. | ||
| Rwven |
Arcticktm, The spacer has to compress in order for the side load to occure. The spacer is aluminum and will deform before the inner race or the axle will. Once severely over torqued the spacer should probably be replaced. | ||
| Teeps |
Arcticktm Posted on Thursday, June 04, 2009 - 12:18 pm: Teeps- I don't get how the spacer would need to be replaced due to over-torque of the axle. Unless it was crushed/visibly damaged, it is just a spacer, right? The bearings take the actual side (thrust) loads. This type of bearing is not designed for a thrust preload. A thrust preload condition could result if the spacer was too short or missing. However, if Buell was concerned about thrust loads on the wheel bearings. They could have spec'd an angular bearing. Angular contact An angular contact ball bearing uses axially asymmetric races. An axial load passes in a straight line through the bearing, whereas a radial load takes an oblique path that tends to want to separate the races axially. So the angle of contact on the inner race is the same as that on the outer race. Angular contact bearings better support "combined loads" (loading in both the radial and axial directions) and the contact angle of the bearing should be matched to the relative proportions of each. The larger the contact angle (typically in the range 10 to 45 degrees), the higher the axial load supported, but the lower the radial load. In high speed applications, such as turbines, jet engines, dentistry equipment, the centrifugal forces generated by the balls will change the contact angle at the inner and outer race. Ceramics such as silicon nitride are now regularly used in such applications due to its low density (40% of steel - and so significantly reduced centrifugal force), its ability to function in high temperature environments, and the fact that it tends to wear in a similar way to bearing steel (rather than cracking or shattering like glass or porcelain). Most bicycles use angular-contact bearings in the headsets because the forces on these bearings are in both the radial and axial direction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_bearing#Angular_ contact http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/ANGULAR_CONT ACT | ||
| Tootal |
That's what they use in the steering head. There they don't have a spacer, you just torque the bearings that are back to back. This is ok for the application but would not work on a wheel bearing. TIMKEN cone and cup bearings do it all, period. It just takes time to properly set the endplay and the production bean counter's don't want to take the time. | ||
| David_e |
I'm changing the rear wheel bearings now and I ended up cracking the rear caliper and bent the rotor because the bearing is frozen to the axle. If anyone knows where i can get a used rotor and caliper for my Uly that would be really cool. I'm in the process of fixing some other issues and my 2000 mile trip is coming up mid July. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks David E. | ||
| Xbimmer |
I'm changing the rear wheel bearings now and I ended up cracking the rear caliper and bent the rotor because the bearing is frozen to the axle. Inquiring minds want to know...  | ||
| Arcticktm |
Teeps, Been out for a while, but I gotta disagree on these bearings not being designed for any thrust load. Even per SKF's website, single row deep groove ball bearings (like we are using for our wheel bearings) are perfectly OK with a reasonable axial load (thrust load, side load, whatever we choose to call it). They give plenty of advice, and even the formulas to use to calculate what is OK. They even go as far as to give loading limits for these bearings when used in applications where only axial loading exists. I have never (knowningly) owned a motorcycle that had angular contact bearings for the wheel bearings. Who is using this today? Just curious - not doubting anyone. I really don't think anyone can fault Buell for using this type of bearing, as it is pretty much the norm in the industry. I do, however, wish for a better arrangement to keep water/dirt out, such as a secondary seal as used on many off road bikes. Wheel bearing is very different than headset, in that (I would think) the wheel bearing loading is predominantly radial. Anyway, not looking to start trouble, but didn't want others to think Buell was crazy and applying a bearing that is not intended for combines (radial + axial) loads. Maybe I'm just sensitive to engineers always getting thrown under the bus no matter what decision we make. Cheers- | ||
| Rwven |
What about ceramics? http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&i d=8034&n=SMR6006C-2YS/C3_#3 | ||
| Swampy |
Maybe the axial and radial loading was underestimated from the beginning. Maybe the environmental conditions were underestimated from the beginning. Why is the Sportster bearing so much larger. Questions. | ||
| David_e |
I did get the wheel bearings in and out with no problem other than breaking my caliper and bending my rotor. I put the wheel bearings in the freezer for a while and used lots of anti-seize. | ||
| Someday |
I recently purchased a leftover '08 Uly, it had orange sealed bearings. After reading about all the bearing failures I decided to change to the newer black sealed bearings even though the bike had 750 miles. The dealer had them in stock. They come in a package of two, the # is E0005.02A8B, and they cost about $16. He said this is the updated #, and they did have black seals. One thing of interest was the orange sealed bearings were made in Taiwan and the black sealed bearings were made in South Korea. If these give me trouble I'll spring for SKF or some other reputable brand. | ||
| Skyclad |
If someone could come up with some kind of dust cap that would fit on the stock wheel I would pay for it without having to think about it. There has to be a way, I just don't have the time or skill to come up with it I do have a design that should work. I just have to get off my butt and get the measurements and take it to a machine shop. I will let everyone know when it is done. | ||
| Edgydrifter |
Sonuvabiscuit... just picked up a big nail in my barely-broken-in rear tire today. The only silver lining is that I have a good excuse to install the new-style bearings as long as I have the rear wheel off anyway. | ||
| Cycletlh |
In addition to over torque, I believe part of the problem comes from the inner spacer is not always centered when torqued. This will cause a side load and failure shortly after installation. The shoulder on the axle tapers too soon. Make sure everything is aligned before installation. Try to slide the bolt straight through without putting pressure on the spacer. Then snug up and back off a few times before torquing. Think the manual calls for that. Just my thoughts. Hope this helps. | ||
| Treadmarks |
I wonder how Treadmarks is doing with his German FAG bearings. Fags are doing great. Lota two up riding with no problems yet. Did a bit of rain and my hubs are dry.  |
