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Hughlysses
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 08:47 am: | 
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This issue doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to diagnose, but I guess it is. The only ways for the oil level to go down in the swingarm reservoir (once the bike is shut off) are by (1) reduction in oil volume due to cooling or (2) leakage into the crankcase via the oil pump or oil system.
The oil pump has a "pressure" section that sucks oil out of the swingarm, pumps it through the oil filter, and on to the cam and crankshaft bearings. The oil flows from there to the crankcase. The other half of the oil pump is a scavenging pump, which sucks oil out of the crankcase and pumps it back to the swingarm. Maybe the clearances in the new improved oil pump are excessive on some bikes, allowing oil to flow out of the swingarm, leak out of the oil pump (within the engine) and then wind up in the crankcase? As soon as you crank the bike, the scavenging section of the pump would suck this oil out of the crankcase and return it to the swingarm.
Has anyone ever checked their oil with the engine running? You might end up making a mess (not sure if the crankcase pressure would blow oil out or not) but it'd be interesting to see how the running oil level compares, and it would take oil pump leakage out of the equation. A sight glass sure would be handy for this. |
Jphish
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 10:53 am: |
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Yeah - A site glass would be nice! - But we're stuck with dipsticks. I think Hangetsu is right, it's the inconsistancy that's bothersome. If it only takes 2-3oz to go from 'wet tip' to 2XX condition, it cant be that critical. I'm just going to quit worrying about it - if the end of the stick is wet - Uly good to go. |
Wheelybueller
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 08:15 pm: |
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I believe there is a low and full mark.
If you run it in the middle and check it the same every time your golden.
All engines use some oil thats why there is a dipstick.
a Honda CRF 450 will use 1/4 qt in a moto.
Rotax engines are users of oil.
All Im saying is get into a checking routine and be consistent.
Dont sweat the small stuff.
3 oz between changes is minor.
just my .02 |
Mad_doctor
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 09:14 pm: |
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You also have to remember, you are riding an air pump. As you ride and shift gears, when you back off the throttle, the oil in the crankcase gets sucked up on the cylinder wall. As the oil control ring wipes the wall clean, there in always going to be oil getting past the rings, either due too the crosshatch on the wall, or just past the rings. The older engines -pre 1980, were really bad about using oil, technology has improved that. So in this case, if you ride hard, or run through the gears (like riding in town, or short bursts), you will use more oil from time to time. Yes there are concerns about having normal readings, but enjoy the ride, and try not to let some dipstick ruin it for you. |
Choyashi
| | Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 09:35 pm: |
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A sight glass would only make it worse!
The Bandit had one, and every time I looked at it I had to add oil.
With the Buell you can just pretend the
oil is at the right level! |
Keith_mahoney
| | Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 02:28 am: |
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Hughlysses - I don't pull the dipstick with the engine running but I have pulled the dipstick, cleaned it, and the put it back in and started the engine, shut down the engine and then check the level. That is the only time I can get it up the the xx point.
Like I said earlier, I know there is oil in the engine so I am not concerned about that. It's the oil change that bothers me. |
Jphish
| | Posted on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 12:14 pm: |
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Not sure this is correct in every case but here's my observation & reasoning. When oil is showing at about the last 1/4" of the dip stick it takes about 2.5 - 3 oz to get it to 2XX. Another 3oz and its almost at the top X (which I try to avoid since it ends up in the airbox). The Crank case has an 80 oz capacity. So less than 10% (6 oz) of oil volume variation covers the full range of the dipstick. I try to check it at consistant temp and time interval - about 30 sec after shut down after at least a 20 mile ride. Can't control for ALL the variables, but this is as good as we can get in with imprecise parameters in an imperfect world. SO: I surmise that if it's showing at least 1/4" on the stick we should'nt have an oil starved Vtwin. I'm open to other opinions, since my logic maybe faulty and others may have a different experience. Whadda ya think ? Attempting to quell bouts of EOA. (excessive oil anxiety) |
Ulykan
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 08:54 pm: |
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I changed my oil today (1K service/oil change by dealer) and after 2.5 qts. my oil barely shows on the dipstick. I'm puzzled and confused as to whether to add enough to bring it above the add mark or leave it as is, knowing that it has 2.5qts, the proper amount. This is after the fill and before riding it but running the engine on idle for a few minutes and after a 3 mile ride, checking the oil after getting home. Suggestions are welcome. Thanks. |
Nvr2old
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 10:01 pm: |
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Do not allow hot oil level to fall below Add/Fill mark on dipstick. Doing so can result in equipment damage and/or equipment malfunction. (00189a)
The above warning in the owner's manual makes you wonder. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 10:13 pm: |
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The general wisdom on previous Buells has been to determine your "proper" oil level after doing an oil change. Put in EXACTLY 2.5 quarts of oil and ride the bike until the oil is up to full operating temperature (HOT). In the case of an XB, that means until the engine's hot enough for the fan to come on. (Ulykan- I'd guess your oil wasn't really very hot when you checked it.) Immediately put the bike on the sidestand and check the oil. Wherever it shows, that's the correct "normal" oil level on your bike.
Maybe part of the problem with the 08/09's is the higher flow oil system with larger oil cooler. Maybe you have to run it a LONG time to get it truly hot?
One thing I haven't seen mentioned that could affect the oil reading is the position of the front forks with the bike on the sidestand. With the forks at full left lock, the bike leans more to the left. I always check mine with the forks straight ahead. Why? Hell if I know, it just seems right.
(Message edited by hughlysses on April 14, 2009) |
Itileman
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 10:43 pm: |
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Anyone having different readings with synthetic vs. dino? |
Ulykan
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 11:11 pm: |
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I'll be riding tomorrow so will check the oil level after it's hot. I may add enough more oil to be above the add mark but after adding 2.5qts I would think that if I add more it would be dumped into the air box. I'm worried about the level because Monday I'm leaving on what will be a trip of over 2K miles. |
Skinstains
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:57 am: |
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Is this really a topic that has people concerned ? I don't know, I just thought it was strange that this many people are wondering about an eighth inch on the stick. Those cheap a$$ plastic sticks are all bent anyways. Between that and the casting and machining of the tank I see alot of room for fluctuations. Keep a leaky bike and you'll always know when you need oil. |
Nvr2old
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 08:37 am: |
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Yes, it is. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 11:11 am: |
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A couple of things to note.
The swingarm contains the oil tank. The swingarm moves depending on the suspension settings, whether the bike is level, how the front wheel is turned, and what's in your bags.
The dipstick sits in the oil at an angle. This magnifies the effect of changing oil levels. The difference in oil level between add and full is less than the distance on the dipstick because of this angle.
This is why it is difficult to get consistent oil level readings. But...
The bike uses a dry sump oiling system. Unlike a car, which collects oil in an oilpan on the bottom of the engine, the bike collects oil in an oiltank, which is inside your swingarm. The bike actually has two oil pumps, one to pump oil from the tank into the engine, and one to suck oil out of the engine and back into the tank.
If you have oil in the oil tank, you pretty much have "enough" oil. Cooling is better if you have more in there, but you aren't starving the engine for oil if there is oil in the tank. That's probably why Buell hasn't addressed the oil level measurement issue; it doesn't really matter.
It does matter that you not overfill the tank. If you do, the pump pushes the excess oil "elsewhere," typically your airbox. I've had problems with this on my Blast (not so much on the XB) when I've added oil with the bike cold. What would happen is that the oil would seep down into the engine when the bike wasn't running, making it look like the oil level was low. I'd add oil, then start the bike, and it would pump all the seeped oil back into the tank and when that filled up, into my airbox. I think the instructions to warm up the bike before checking the oil aren't so much to get it up to temperature (though that matters) as they are to allow the oil levels in the engine to stabilize. |
Bmwdavid
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:16 pm: |
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I'm not sure why so many have trouble checking the oil level. On my Uly I check the oil every third or fourth ride...approx 600-700 miles. I pull into my garage and turn off the engine. I wait a couple of mins then pull dip stick, wipe off, reinsert be sure to screw in all the way. Then unscrew and check level. My Uly tends to stay at the middle level between changes. I change every 3,000-4,000 miles using M1 20W-50.
These are dry sump engines and the oil needs to be fully warmed up or you will get a false low level reading. This is also a common issue with owners of air cooled Porsche 911's. Those cars are prone to over filling with oil if oil is not checked when hot.
David |
Ulykan
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:41 pm: |
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Today even before starting the bike I checked the oil. COLD But it didn't even register on the dipstick. The bike was parked in the exact location as when I checked it previously after changing the oil and warming the engine at idle then checking it again after a 10 minute ride. Talk about confusing! Just how is one supposed to establish the proper oil level if a proper level can't even be established after an oil change? Uly is in the shop for a 5K service today but when I get her back I'm going to add a couple of oz. at at time until I have a level that I can see and stop there. This way I'll have a baseline to go from. Agreed? Yes or no? |
Thunderbox
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 01:07 pm: |
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I check mine every 2000 kms weather I need to or not. I must be lucky but I have yet to add oil to the bike between changes @ 6000kms. Maybe I am just too easy on the girl. lol |
Hangetsu
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 01:14 pm: |
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Well, I'm glad my initial post caused such an in-depth discussion. After my first few experiences with the finicky readings I was getting on the stick, I took the casual attitude posted above of simply not worrying about, as long as oil was somewhere on the stick (after heating the engine, making sure it's on level ground, and on the side stand,of course). My concern elevated only when, one morning, at a time the oil level should have been just fine; i.e. not so many miles since the last time I checked and added oil; the oil light refused to go out, even after many seconds of running. This really freaked me out. I rode about 10 minutes to get her warmed up, checked the level and found it very low on the stick. I added only about 2 to 3 ozs, ran it again and suddenly it was 1/4" over the FULL line. I'm not sure why this happened, particularly the light coming on. However now, other than the light being a little slow to go off some mornings, things seem to be fine.
(Message edited by Hangetsu on April 15, 2009) |
Ulykan
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 01:26 pm: |
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Well, I'm glad my initial post caused such an in-depth discussion
I'm really glad you posted this thread because I hadn't given it much thought since I was seeing no sign of leaks or smoke in the first 4K+ miles. After reading your post and doing my own oil change for the first time I wanted to establish a baseline for reference hence my input beginning yesterday. I appreciate your post because it alerted me to my own situation which I'm still not comfortable with. Thanks for posting this. |
Keith_mahoney
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 04:20 pm: |
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Is this really a topic that has people concerned ? I don't know, I just thought it was strange that this many people are wondering about an eighth inch on the stick. Those cheap a$$ plastic sticks are all bent anyways. Between that and the casting and machining of the tank I see alot of room for fluctuations. Keep a leaky bike and you'll always know when you need oil.
It's not just an 1/8th of an inch for some of us. I just went camping up in the Netherlands this past weekend. Before leaving I added another 4 ounces of oil (this makes a total of 10 ounces above 2.5 quarts since last oil change 1000 miles ago)and rode about 500 miles. I came home after 200 miles of straight droning on the highway. Shut down the bike, got undressed, fan stopped and I checked the oil. dipstick was dry. I started the bike and let it idle for a while then shut it down and checked the oil, it was on the word "add" which is well below the add line. I pulled the airbox cover and yep it is full of oil. So apparently, the word "add" is my full mark, but most of the time when it is convenient to check the dipstick will be dry. |
Choyashi
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 06:24 pm: |
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I never got the same reading twice on my Sportster either!
If the bike was on a center stand I would
feel better about it being level.
How can you check the "Oil Level" on
a bike that's not level to start with?
I don't worry if it shows on the stick,
(no matter what mark)but when it doesn't
it makes me wonder!
Then I have to stick my big head between
the swingarm and frame and look in the hole
to see that there is still oil!
You know how Harleys leak oil,
and this is a Harley engine
believe it or not! |
Oldnotbold
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 07:23 pm: |
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I guess I'll add my 2 cents. At 5000 miles, I put 2.5 quarts (total including filter). When I rode I always checked the oil when I got home (hot). It would range anywhere from 1/4 to full on the dipstick. I added a total of 6 oz between 5000 and 10000 miles. There were a few times that it would show over full.
Dennis |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 08:10 pm: |
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06' with about 17000 miles. Last oil change was at about 3000 miles and never added a drop. Motoman break-in. Mobil 1 auto syn 15W50. |
Skinstains
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 11:41 pm: |
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I do all of my own oil changes, always have. Truth be told, I don't even check my oil between changes. I re-ran all of my breathers so that a wet-sumping situation will puke all the oil on my garage floor and then I'll know I need some. I've had no problems for over 25 years. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 12:40 am: |
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No catch can to safely store the oil and recycle at your nearest facility? Do I need to get a few more carbon canisters and put them on your bikes too? |
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