| Author | Message | ||
     Electraglider_1997 |
I actually have a good opinion of you Daves. I just figured that would get you to answer this side stand issue. I checked today at Dillon Brother's HD/Buell and they said Buell normally will cover all damage when it is an issue such as this. I surely hope that is the case if it ends up that my bike falls over because of the side stand. Daves, actually one of these days I'll probably be calling you to buy that software for resetting the tps and hopefully now the timing. | ||
| Daves |
I am sorry I took it the wrong way. Been a tough day for me, I had a customer crash and die this morning. He was on his way here for his 1000 mile service. I agree they should cover any damage caused by the stand breaking. I am not at liberty to talk about it at this point. | ||
| Xbimmer |
I have a little good news. I think. When I started reading about this last week I called up my dealer and had them order me a replacement. The idea was to get it gusseted if I had time before my trip, or at least take it with me just in case. I ordered a new pivot bolt also, but found out a couple days ago they are backordered. I picked up the stand today, we opened up the box to see whether it appeared to be any beefier than the original. What also was in the box was a steel cylindrical thing in a packet w/ an e-clip. I asked him what that part was, we looked at the instructions and found it to be a new style pivot "pin". There is no threaded end to screw into the stand clevis, the pin's diameter is consistent from the flange (where the hex of the bolt is) all the way to the end. I don't think this would fit my stock stand. In fact, the instructions show a diagram specifically identifying the "stock" parts. The diagram for my new stuff identifies the parts as "service parts", and the whole thing is identified as "sidestand leg service kit". Wish I had a digicam... This kit might address at least one of the three apparent issues, the pivot bolt, and if the leg is stronger maybe that too. I can't tell, the tube outer diameters are the same. At least it's a start. Kit: L1167.1AK (under $60) Leg: L0167.1-1AK Pin: L0174.4A8 Clip: N0425.02A8 | ||
| Naustin |
Interesting it would be announced if it was the final word. Does it come with high quality hardware to attach to the bike, or is it just the pivot pin that's upgraded? | ||
| M2nc |
Daves - I am sorry to hear about your customer. I understand how that will affect you. You may need to take a little time to deal with it. Take care. | ||
| Davo |
I noticed that the two bolts holding the bracket assembly for the sidestand are the same part number as the bolts that hold the tiebar assemblies. The part no. is CA0015.02A8. Does anyone have the diameter, length and thread size? It would be nice to get some high grade bolts prior to the procedure. I replaced my pivot bolt and used red thread locker in it because it kept backing out. I think when the pivot bolt gets loose the forked sides of the sidestand spread and it stresses the weld. The two sheared bolts in the above picture appeared to have sheared with out even being loose. In the beginning I was afraid to leave town on my Uly and now I am afraid to park it. I always park to the left of everything and I don't ride the bike to events for that very reason. The adventure continues. | ||
| Daves |
thanks M2nc. It is a very weird feeling when you have sold someone the bike they die on. It has happened to me before. I'll be fine. We were not "friends" in the true sense but I do get kind of attached to all my customers whether they are in person customers or Badwebbers/ATCers doing business over the phone or net. I'm waiting for the news to see if that can shed any light as to what happened. I take the same exit every day to go to work. It will not be the same tomorrow, or ever now. | ||
| Ulywife |
Daves - sorry to hear about your customer. Please take the time you need to take care of yourself. | ||
| Windrider |
Daves, Sorry to hear about the death of your customer. I have had some close calls over the years on 2 wheelers. I have wondered at times if riding is really worth the risk. I have young kids and many things I wish to do with the rest of my life. Yet tomorrow I will still throw a leg over the Mighty Ulysses and tool off amongst the death cages to another day of toil. Everyone has to make their own decisions about what risks are worth taking in life and your customer had already made that decision. Take care. Ride on. WindRider | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Dave, Sorry to read about this loss. Take care of yourself. G2 | ||
| Court |
It is a serious issue. Buell has never, in any way shape or form, sought to avoid taking responsibility for anything. In fact, they've got quite the other way. This will be dealt with properly, promptly and effectively. | ||
| Chopperboy |
I concur with Court. Buell has always handled any issues I have experienced with my Buell(s) - both recall and other problems. I am, however, a little concerned about finding my Uly on it's side one of these days. Buell needs to accelerate the fix. I checked my stand / bolts and all appear to be okay at this point. I will keep my fingers crossed  . BTW - Is it possible that Buell changed the kickstand bolts as a running fix on later models? My Uly was produced in March '06. | ||
| Naustin |
BTW - Is it possible that Buell changed the kickstand bolts as a running fix on later models? My Uly was produced in March '06. Possible? - Of course! Confirmed? - Nope. Likely? - Good GOD I would hope so! Xbimmer didn't mention any upgraded bolts other than the pivot pin in that "sidestand leg service Kit"... That fact only deepens the speculation I have. | ||
| Xbimmer |
First off, Daves, hang in there. These things happen tragically and there's nothing we can do except go on. Until I read your post it had never occurred to me how motorcycle sales people might feel about handing the keys off to a new owner, you've given me new insight. Where I work there's only one way in or out, a short dead end street that exits into a four-way intersection. A few weeks ago a guy I didn't even know was riding to work probably (I'd seen him often about the same time) and was approaching that intersection when one of those idiots who are the most dangerous to riders pulled the left turn in front of him. He didn't even make it to the ambulance. Every day I pass through that intersection and I reflect on that guy, and how virtually anything could have changed what happened, but it happened and now I learn from it... Regarding the kit, it is only to replace the leg, without removing the sidestand bracket. The only parts are the leg, the pivot pin, and the e-clip for the pin. My first thought was what if the e-clip bails somehow? I won't know until I install the kit so I don't know how the pivot would react without a clip. The clevis appears a little different also but I'll know more with a side by side comparison. Maybe if we're lucky this is Buell's fix for the pivot bolt problems AND a weak stand leg. I know when I install the kit I'm gonna feel a whole lot better! Except for those flange bolts... Rhino, what's all that white stuff on the bracket and bolt heads? Is it possible a corrosion problem of some sort weakened the bolts at the thread/shank point? What does anyone think about studs vs bolts? | ||
| Davo |
We need to go grade 8 with high strength red thread locker. Too much heat and vibes for the blue. Someone please post some bolt specs and save us a couple of hours of down time. I might put Mr.Mig on the side stand for a little beefing up. I think that the fork area spreads if the pivot bolt backs out and then the bike goes horizontal. | ||
| Teeps |
I showed the photos from Rhino to one of the engineers I work with. Just from the pictures, he said it looked like the bolts were loose and fatigue failed. Now the speculation becomes, were the bolts really loose, under torqued, or bottomed out in the blind mounting holes? He suggested using a grade 8 bolt of correct length, properly torqued, with or without loctite (I wouldn't recommend red, as you may need to remove the stand in the future) should eliminate the problem, if any of the above speculation is true. | ||
| Al_lighton |
I believe the problem is that the unthreaded shank length, and the associated not fully formed threads, are too long for the thickness of the bracket. This means that when the threads bottom out, additional torque is only torquing the bolt, but not stretching the bolt axially. Without preloading the the bolt, cyclic loading puts it through reverse bending, and fatigue failure is the result. When I put my new bolts in, there will be a washer under the bolt head that isn't per the original design, so that I know the bolt is properly preloaded. Fact is, the design kinda sucks from a load path viewpoint. Based on bending stress that needs to be reacted by the plate attachment to the bottom of the engine, there SHOULD be a third bolt further towards the C/L of the engine. Or, at minimum, the two bolts that are there should be closer to the C/L. But there isn't a boss on the engine, so it is too late to add that easily now. The CA0015.02A8 bolt is already a Grade 8 bolt. It is the same on that is used for the brake and shifter pivots (and the heim joint attachments). I ordered some for my kickstand, not even realizing that I had stock on them already because of the shifter/brake pivot application. I'll change mine this weekend. Al Al | ||
| Xbimmer |
Blue or red Loctite, Al? I'm a little nervous about putting "permanent" red into my case treads too, but there's a lot of heat down there for the blue... | ||
| Teeps |
I removed the side stand from my bike this morning, here's my observation and what I did. The bolts are 5/16x18 1-1/4" long. The shoulder of the bolt is shallow enough to allow proper torque and clamping. What I did find was very high thread friction on both bolts during removal. I believe thread friction prevented the bolts from being properly torqued. Causing insufficient clamping of the bracket to the engine bosses. There was fretting evident on the bracket and the original bolt washer heads. The bolts were not bottoming out in the holes as was suspected. And there was no loctite on the threads. Here's how I fixed my bike's stand: Parts: (2)Bolt, 1 1/2" Allen head alloy steel (black) (4)Washer flat, grade 8 (2)Washer lock, grade 8 Sand the side stand bracket so it is flat. Clean the mount surfaces on the engine. Assemble two sets of bolts with 1 lock washer followed by two flat washers. Place a drop of clean engine oil on the bolt threads and the washer stack. Assemble and torque to 27lbs/ft. (optional) Before installing the side stand to the engine: Spread a (very) thin layer of silicone sealer to the engine side of the side stand bracket. Do not get silicone on the threads or in the holes. (Message edited by teeps on July 01, 2006) | ||
| Al_lighton |
That bolt is a dry thread locking grade 8 bolt. It comes with white thread locker on the bolt when it is new. So it should be considered a use once and throw away bolt. I measured the bracket thickness and the bolt "shoulder". The shoulder IS thinner than the bracket, but there is only about 1/2 thread from it's start, so I have my doubts about the thread form being fully developed at that point. Might be, hard to tell. But I'm still putting mine together with a wardened washer, though. Al | ||
| Xbimmer |
I just typed out a lengthy and detailed description of my installation today of my new replacement stand kit Buell sent me, but my computer brainfarted and I've had a long day so here it is in short. The stock pivot bolt is inferior. The new pin is more supported and supporting of the stand leg, and retained by an apparently unstressed e-clip. My original bolt had evidence of Red Loctite I believe, my bike is a new 10/05 so if the factory or the dealer applied it then maybe there was a concern about bolt backout. The mounting plate-to-engine design sucks, as Al-lighton mentioned. Move the mounting bosses back a bit and/or beef them up for four square-arranged bolts. There appears to be room to build them up inward toward crankcase centerline, so they might have to recess that top section of the muffler... so what? A four-bolt sidestand mount w/o worries. Better yet, maybe move two bolts inward toward centerline, then machining away two angles on the outers of the bosses to allow two upper bolts more horizontally, in the direction of the forces from a deployed stand. A welded-up bracket with an angled upright would be required, but how much extra could that cost? The stands, at least my kit's stand, are made in Taiwan... As far as I know nobody but me on this forum has one of these kits and my dealer's parts guys (they're great by the way) not only know nothing about collapsing stands but had no idea why the bolt was replaced with a pin or why I received an upgrade (?) kit instead of the leg I ordered. I took pix of the parts side by side but I had to use a tossaway digital since my kids and their cameras were out and about, halfway through the freakin camera caught fire so I had to start over... Been an interesting day, but I love my Uly still, got an awesome new jacket and a Pitbull, I feel better about my upgraded stand, tomorrow I tackle the pinging that my dealer's service people say is "normal", and in a couple of days my young adult offspring will have the run of the house for a couple weeks while I'm riding Yellowstone with my brother or maybe two or three.  | ||
| Bosezone |
My sidestand broke a while back. The bolts were fine and tight after it broke. The problem was the pivot pin broke then the sidestand broke at the forked pivot mount. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Bosezone, the kit L1167.1AK replaces the original stand and bolt with a changed stand and a pivot pin. Did you replace your broken parts with original type? | ||
| Davo |
Bosezone, Do you have a picture? I would like to weld mine and it would be good to see the weak point so that I can fix it. | ||
| 250bultaco |
I've just gotten an XB12X that shows a date of manufacture in early June. Is this issue with the sidestand breaking problematic with early release models only? I've had no problem, but replacement of the bolts might be in order. Assuming it's been rectified on later releases, like mine, would there be any way to identify if it's an upgraded sidestand? Thanks | ||
| Teeps |
Al_lighton Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 That bolt is a dry thread locking grade 8 bolt. It comes with white thread locker on the bolt when it is new. So it should be considered a use once and throw away bolt. A simple explanation is the thread lock compound is not at spec for dry torque. Could be a bad batch or beyond the shelf life. Either way, the bolts don't get to the correct tension, allowing the part to move and eventually break the bolts.} | ||
| Xbimmer |
Bultaco, since this kit I keep going on about was shipped to me instead of a replacement leg only, and since the instructions clearly show it to be a replacement for the original, and since the instructions show a revised printing date of 02/23/06, I would think the factory recognized at least one problem with the original stands and produced this fixit kit. I would think a June-produced machine would have the new stand. If yours has a pivot BOLT with a hex at the top then you have the old style, if you have a pivot PIN with a conical flange at the top and an e-clip retaining the other end then you have the new style. I would find it hard to believe that the factory would be producing side-by-side both repair kits for the old style and also new bikes with the old style, but who knows... New kit folks, once again: L1167.1AK, under $60 with tax and now I only have to worry about the bolts (for awhile).  | ||
| 250bultaco |
Xbimmer, Thanks, My mistake, in that I've got an April production unit. By your description, it has the newer stand. May be best to just replace the bolts with grade 8's as per "Teeps". Teeps, What's the reason for the extra bolt length and additional flat washers? I'm not trying to be a smart_ss, as you go into pretty good detail so you've obviously got a reason for doing it that way. Thanks | ||
| Teeps |
Xbimmer Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 New kit folks, once again: L1167.1AK, under $60 with tax and now I only have to worry about the bolts (for awhile). Make sure you can screw the bolts all the way in, by hand. Then when they are properly torqued should not be a problem. I would still suggest sanding the stand surface flat where it mates to the engine bosses. 250bultaco Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 Teeps, What's the reason for the extra bolt length and additional flat washers? I'm not trying to be a smart_ss, as you go into pretty good detail so you've obviously got a reason for doing it that way. The original bolts have built-in washers. So I reasoned that the replacement bolts should too. I used alloy-steel Allen head bolts, with no built-in washer, thus the need for flat washers. I didn't use loctite so the need for lock washers. The reason for extra length is, the added washers, I wanted 1-1/4" of thread up in the holes when torqued to spec. Turns out the hole are plenty deep, as the full 1.5" bolt with 2 flat and one lock washer would thread all the way in to the engine mounting boss. The engineer at work, I consulted about this problem, assures me that what I have done is overkill. (Message edited by teeps on July 03, 2006) | ||
| Rhinowerx |
Update: Rode out to the dealership yesterday to get an update on the bike. The main guy who had called the tech folks at Buell WI about the issue was off for the day and will be back at work on Wednesday. The bike had already been sent out to a specialty workshop (TapEx?) to have the broken bolts removed. I plan to check back with the dealership again on Wednesday afternoon. Cheers -Jack |
