| Author | Message | ||
     Treadmarks |
I read the shootout. Great read. Lotsa good info there. My hats off to everyone that helped make that happen.  I am pretty much sold on the drummer, but there is just something about that Serpent system.  I would like to hear from anyone that has one, or maybe someone that has heard them both. How much louder is it than the drummer? Is there any issues with the excessive heat, to add to the high heat we already have? Any issues with the fit of the upper or lower fairings? Planned mods are open air, K&N and race ECM. Thanks in advance for any and all help.  | ||
| Daves |
I'd go with the Drummer if you want to run the race ecm and not have to have the Direct Link tuning done. Call Kevin, get the Drummer Call me and get the ecm and filter ECM 188.95 K+N 51.25  | ||
| David_e |
I'm going with the Drummer , ecm and filter. | ||
| Treadmarks |
I'd go with the Drummer if you want to run the race ecm and not have to have the Direct Link tuning done. Hi Daves, I thought the micron system was a good match for the race ECM, peaking around 105hp? Did I read the report wrong??? | ||
| Daves |
The race ecm will not work well with the Micron. You would need to have it remapped. The Micron is a great pipe, but, it is more work and cost to make it run properly. More work to install also, you need to tilt the motor to install it. The results in the report was with custom mapping. | ||
| Josh_cox |
If you aren't going to get direct-link tuning, don't run the Micron with the race ecm. Run it with the standard one. I can get dyno charts to explain why if you wish, but the standard ecm is better matched. Personally, I think the Micron is the best sounding/performing/looking system out for the XB right now. Although, I've heard nothing but good from drummer owner's either. More than likely you will be happy either way; it is just a matter of how much you want to spend. | ||
| Daves |
Keep in mind, I sell the Micron, 719.95. I do not sell Drummers. I still recommend the Drummer for most applications. | ||
| Smcnamara |
Josh & Daves, can you please elaborate? From the shootout test by Al: Micron - XB12 "The Fueling match to the Race ECM is actually quite good on the XB12, much better than on the XB9." Drummer SS - XB12 "The fueling curves are not really close to the Buell Race ECM map, but no dangerously lean spots were noted." Drummer Std - XB12 "The fueling curve was even closer to the Buell Race ECM map than on the XB9, so tuning for optimal fuel delivery was easily done." It would seem according to that description that either the Micron or Standard Drummer would be a good fit for the Race ECM without a remap, but that the Drummer SS + Race ECM would NOT. I'm sure you guys have reasons why you wouldn't recommend the Micron without a Remap, but can you provide some additional detail? Thanks! | ||
| Diablobrian |
The Drummer SS is a completely different pipe from the standard drummer. | ||
| Josh_cox |
At WOT, the Micron w/o remap is fine. When you are cruising, your AFV will be over 15.5:1. That means your bike will run very hot and likely ping. Here is a conversation where we discussed this before with dyno charts to show facts: http://www.americanthunderbike.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004153 If you read it, you see there really is no good option except to have the bike dyno tuned. | ||
| Treadmarks |
I'm sure you guys have reasons why you wouldn't recommend the Micron without a Remap, but can you provide some additional detail? Please tell me more??? I like the drummer, alot. I have only heard great things about Kevin and his products. I did not even know about the micron serpent till I read the report. And the price is way up there, especially for working folk like me!  I mean, it is pretty hard for me to justify twice the price, for just a couple of extra ponies, and I don't even race. But it does look baaaadaaaass.  Wait till the kids in the chevies see these piiiiieps!! I just thought the report indicated that it was very close to the race ECM, not being very dyno saaavy an all. If it is not a good match, then I guess I'll just have to fergitabout. (Message edited by TREADMARKS on September 27, 2006) (Message edited by TREADMARKS on September 27, 2006) | ||
| Daves |
Get the Drummer | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Go with the Drummer...It takes about 1 hour to install if you fart around...when you install the race ecm you will need to get the TPS reset...mine wouldn't run at all until I did...the Drummer sounds GREAT!! not to loud and it doesn't have that Harley sound...more like a V-8 with a big cam  | ||
| Treadmarks |
Is it possible to buy a map for the micron to push into a race ECM? Are they available anywhere? | ||
| Blake |
The map is the same whether loaded on a race ECM or a stock ECM. The answer is yes. American Sport Bike has it. | ||
| Red_chili |
Interesting... does that mean, closed-loop the race ECM and stock ECM are the same? I was under the impression that the stocker was leaner in closed loop (~14.7:1), while the race ECM was EPA-unconstrained (13-13.5:1). Inquiring minds want to know... | ||
| Treadmarks |
now I am really confused.  | ||
| Daves |
No need to be confused If you go with the Micron you should have the ecm remapped for that pipe. We have done a couple but at this time are not selling maps. We are having problems with repeatability from bike to bike? I think Al has a better handle on this than we do at this time. We will be doing more testing once winter hits and we can devote some shop time to the project again. So it boils down to, Micron pipe K+N air filter Directlink "key" Custom map or Drummer K+N Race or stock ecm,Kevin says it will run fine with the stock ecm. I have no reason to doubt Kevin's findings. Personally I would run the race ecm with it but that is just me. YMMV | ||
| Treadmarks |
Daves, I already have the race ecm, and k+n filter. If I go with your old race map 5, would that get me pretty close to 100hp like the report indicates? http://www.h-dappleton.com/partpics/misc/dynojet1024.jpg | ||
| Homer |
FWIW, I have the full meal deal setup from American Sport Bike (Micron + DirectLink map + open airbox) and am very happy with it. The bike runs absolutely fantastic without any pinging and I haven't noticed any more heat (but I also got the Jet Hot coating). The power delivery is very smooth with no surging or any other oddities. The pipe does sound really nice but it is a bit loud for my taste. I wish I had some slip-in DB killers like on my Akrapovic system. My only complaint was that the install was a bit of a pain. Rotating the engine wasn't that bad but I had a hard time getting rid of any exhaust leaks around where the various bits come together. I ended up taking the system apart a couple times to get it right. Then again, my kung fu installing exhausts is not that strong. | ||
| Homer |
Oh, I almost forgot - I didn't have any problems with fit and the fairings. The adjustable bracket setup that comes with the pipe works fine. | ||
| Kds1 |
Tread, the Drummer will work with either stock ecm or race, you have to remember that just because you change something on the intake or exhaust doesn't mean that the 02 sensor is going to automatically tell the ecm to make it lean, that's not it's job.....you'll be fine either way you go...I just rode 120 miles yesterday with a guy on a Uly with Drummer stock ecm and filter and the bike never had a burp or malfunction and I kept waiting for him to say it didn't perform good but the most I got out of him was that he really was happy....if you have the cash for tuning you'll get a flatter curve, but presonally I run the stock ecm, no problems..... Kevin www.kdfab.com | ||
| Al_lighton |
To clarify: 1) Race ECM or stock ECM, we can push the same map values into either ECM and get the same performance. The map itself is different (different ECM config ID), but the values and performance obtained are the same. The big difference is that the stock ECM needs to either leave the servo on the bike or have an emulator to not get a fault, the race ECM doesn't need it. 2) See under my sponsor section for the info on the closed loop AFR info race vs stock 3) The pipe shootout fueling curves of themselves don't tell the whole story with regard to stock or race ECM map match to the pipe in question. Those were just WOT curve match with the AFV reset to 100. Its useful curve SHAPE info, just not the whole story, as those curves are going to be scaled up or down by the AFV. IF (big IF) the closed loop AFV learn mode was a perfect match, the fueling curves would tell an accurate story for WOT. But if the AFV is skewed up or down due to a mismatch in fueling across the AFV learn mode RPMs, the fueling is scaled up or down accordingly. AFV won't change the fueling curve shape, only it's amplitude. The only way to change the fueling curve shape is to remap the ECM. All else being equal, an XB12 pipe that makes more torque than a Buell Race pipe between 2-4K will make an AFV above 100 when run on a Buell race ECM. Conversely, a pipe that makes less torque than a Buell Race Pipe between 2-4K will make an AFV below 100. It would take a very long time to characterize the overall fueling characteristics of each pipe relative to the stock or race ECM maps inclusive of AFV effects. This is because the difference isn't usually constant over the entire AFV learn range. | ||
| Glenn |
Hi Kevin, I'm thinking about getting a Drummer or SS Drummer and would like your comments regarding the best ECM for the SS Drummer. Also wondering about how loud the SS is. I would like something that sounds a little stronger than stock but am not a fan of loud for the sake of it. I'm after more performance and a little stronger sound. Thanks | ||
| Treadmarks |
The shootout report also has both the Drummer and Micron at about 102/103 Db noise. Is there anyone here that has heard them both? Which is the loudest? | ||
| Kds1 |
Glenn,I don't think the SS is all that loud as much as it is a deep sound and not offensive but that's my opinion only and everyone has a different tolerance to sound..... the tests that I've done are real world street tests, I don't have access to a dyno all the time, but this summer I told Jerseyguy to take the race ecm off his 12 and run the stock ecm to see how it acted on the road...he rode it all summer long and couldn't tell a difference....this is with the Drummer CF, same muffler as the SS just a different can....I'm currently running the stock ecm and SS on my racebike and using 103 octane fuel and the bike has no trouble, no heating issues and doesn't pop on decel hardly ever...I'm going to keep running this scenario till something happens so you guys don't have to find out the hard way.....I'm going to test the race ecm and stock ecm at road Atlanta and just see how much difference if any in performance there is between the 2 ecm's..... I will also add that building a good exhaust is knowing what causes lean and rich conditions in the power curve and not being restrictive to make a flatter airfuel curve to not skew the afv so much in the first place.....this aspect makes it easier for everyone to be able to get good power from the factory tuned ecm's.....I've worked on reading all the other exhausts fuel curves on the dyno for 10 yrs and figured out how to not use formulas and math to maximize power in one area and lose it everywhere else....there is a happy medium at making power and having a flat torque curve.....I will add that if you change the bore and stroke of your engine and alot of performance mods that no matter what exhaust you pick you definitely need to tune it or it will not be good on parts.... Kevin www.kdfab.com |
