| Author |
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Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 03:54 pm: | 
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Jinance: Mine started about the 1000 mile mark. Would that be enough time to have carbon buildup?
I honestly don't know. Decarboning an engine involves squirting water into the intake while it's running. It should be fairly simple to do with a plant mister. Might as well give it a try. |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 08:09 pm: |
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My plug reads at stock settings indicated carbon build up should not be an issue with these engines. If so, retarding the timing would make the pinging worse and not better. The reason that the dealer can't fix it is because they are not permitted by the factory and the Federal government to make such adjustments. these bikes were approved to leave the factory under set parameters and they must remain that way. The problem is self evident, the bike gets 60 mpg and meets EPA requirements without a CAT and has 1203cc! They are running them on air with tall ignition curves and a drop of fuel after every 14.7 drops of air! |
Davo
| | Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 03:54 pm: |
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I Replaced my intake manifold seals today. The old seals do not display signs of failure. I noticed some characteristics that could have been related to an intake leak. The engine would float down to idle slowly. I am eager to hear from 44mag regarding his pursuit with the factory. I will report when the rain ceases and I can test ride! |
Red_chili
| | Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 04:43 pm: |
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I don't know if this is appropriate or applicable to the intake seals, but... I have had excellent success using a FIPG product called "The Right Stuff". Got it at Carquest, and it is commonly used and recommended by 4x4 builders on everything from intake through differentials. And my rebuilt air compressor that became non-housebroken. |
Davo
| | Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 04:51 pm: |
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The seals are made of rubber and they seemed ok and there were no signs of air passing around them. If there was a small leak it most likely would not be visible. My AFV readings were/are 105.3 which is lean but not to the point that the AFV would indicate a leak. The task of replacing the seals was awkward and required special or "modified" tools. I could re-cam my XL in the time it took me to replace the intake seals in the Uly. |
Snowscum
| | Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 07:59 pm: |
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Yea mine did the same "float down to idle slowly". But it only did that in the last
few days before I had it fixed. I also noticed I can still get it to ping. Next Im going to try the 07 air box and see if it does the same thing as Red's and run richer. Maybe that might help the ping and heat.
So how was dropping the motor to get this procedure done Davo? Pain in the ass?
How many hours? Did you put it back together yet? |
Davo
| | Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 08:22 pm: |
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I did not drop the engine I just used some short tools. It took about two hours. I will test ride tomorrow. I reset the AFV to see what difference is made. As for your 07 air box, I am afraid you are going to compound your pinging problem. I can fix your pinging problem in five minutes. Did you read the post that shovelheadtom wrote? He retarded his timing about 10 degrees to eliminate the pinging. You only need to go about 7 degrees to stop the ping with a stock ECM. |
Snowscum
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 12:45 am: |
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Hmm the dealer told me they had to lower the motor to get the job done.
Why would the airbox richin Red's stock bike?
I have the race ecm.
(Message edited by snowscum on October 28, 2006) |
Davo
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 02:53 am: |
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The factory manual does not require the engine to be dropped to complete the procedure. You do need a very short 1/2" combination wrench and a short 1/4" allen wrench or a allen wrench tool made for the procedure. They are available from American Sport Bike.
Click HERE. 
The ECM is delivering a predetermined amount of fuel for each RPM and TPS setting. If the new air box allows more air for a predetermined amount of fuel, then the mixture is going to be leaner. The closed loop system should adjust but there is no reason that the air box would make the mixture richer.
I do not think the pinging problem is due to a lean mixture. It is a result of radically early timing. Ask your dealer to describe the timing curve to you in degrees vs. RPM at running temperature (307 F from my testing, 320 F according to Buell). They will not be able to tell you because they do not know and do not know how to confirm the numbers. Then ask them to just tell you were the timing is at hot idle. They don't know! They are completely blind as to the parameters. The numbers are the problem........Promise! The timing light doesn't lie!
(Message edited by davo on October 28, 2006)
Edited to fix broken hyperlink and resulting overwidth text string.
(Message edited by Blake on October 28, 2006) |
44mag2
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 11:45 am: |
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FYI - My Uly is going into the dealership today for round two. This time, I have a very interested factory rep. Hopefully, they will cure the ping. |
Davo
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 05:58 pm: |
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After replacing the intake seals and installing a right side scoop with temperatures in the mid 60's I was able to put my timing back to stock with mild pinging during an extreme test ride. I am thinking that I may have had a small intake leak which contributed to my severe pinging problem this past Spring and Summer. Just to be on the safe side I am still running about three degrees late because I do not want ANY pinging! the right side scoop has also reduced the temperatures that were surrounding the injectors and fuel rail. In all fairness I believe my pinging was due to high heat, ethanol containing fuel and a small intake leak. My AFV number was 105.3 before the intake repair. I will go on a Sunday style ride to set the AFV an will post the new value ASAP! |
Snowscum
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 06:17 pm: |
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How did it go Davo?
Well I couldnt get mine to ping today. I did notice that my exhaust note and engine noise changes tune when it gets hot.
So since the last time I heard it ping was on the way home from the dealer after the intake leak was fixed. Since then I changed back to the harley oil(non syn3) and had the belt issue resolved and complained about it coughing. I think he just did a TPS reset and bumped up the idle.I didnt notice it was where he said it was.(1050-1150 Its still showing 1000rpm).
So I guess it will have to wait till the next warmer spell to see if its fixed. |
Davo
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 08:18 pm: |
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Snowscum,
I have not had the opportunity to establish a new AFV yet. I have been surf fishing at the OBX of NC. As soon as the weather breaks I will check it and post the AFV value. I recently checked an XB12 (04) and the AFV was 99 so my previous 105.3 indicates a leaner burn for our area. I have been having VDSTS cable trouble and I am awaiting the arrival of a new cable for my version. I am glad your pinging has subsided. I am eager to hear from 44mag2 regarding his factory fix. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 09:16 am: |
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Davo,
Can you explain or link me to an explanation of AFV? Thanks |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
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Electraglider_1997,
Here is one helpful link:
http://www.sporttwin.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=1553.h tml
The AFV can now be read on VDSTS as well as the ECM/O2. The AFV fixed value is presented by the software until the bike enters closed loop soon after start up. That initial value is your "stored value". A value over 100 indicates that your conditions are leaner than "perfect burn" and the ECM makes adjustments so when you go back to open loop you will have a 14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio again. Without such a value adjustment under the conditions listed above the ECM would have created an over lean condition when returning to open loop. The same applies to values under 100 but in that case the ECM would make adjustments to go richer in order to achieve a "perfect burn".
The O2 read out is real time and it jumps back an forth from lean to rich and back again constantly. This is a good thing. The more times that the O2 value crosses the threshold indicates a balanced closed loop operation. |
Red_chili
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 10:10 am: |
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Snow, this is a guess, but... sure, the open airbox will allow more air during closed loop. The ECM compensates for this when it learns the new O2 readings for a given throttle/RPM. It richens slightly, adjusting the AFV, and stores it. Then when you whack the throttle the richer AFV comes into play... possibly?
I still get a bit of snatchiness below 2500 in first, but the 'hunting' for stoich that feels like a lean surge is less. It was never terrible, just noticeable.
I'm with Davo. Your problem is a simple timing issue. Common back in the day and no big deal. Just do it!
(Message edited by Red_Chili on November 08, 2006) |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
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Red_Chili,
If your surge is at 3K at a TPS around 10 then the cause is timing but retarding only reduces the effect. It is my opinion that the timing needs to be retarded several degrees at least and if pinging still exists ,with premium fuel, then I would replace the intake seals again. I never leave town without the tools to adjust my timing in the event that I start to have a pingfest! |
Red_chili
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 11:07 am: |
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Nope- I have no pinging. Runs great. Al tells me the surge is just the ECM hunting for stoich (somewhat inefficiently IMHO, but not that bad really).
At least part of the snatchiness below 3K, I think, feels like light flywheel weight frankly. Some is just due to the throttle kinda being an on/off switch.
Clutch solves all when plunking. |
Teeps
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 05:21 pm: |
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So out of the blue (4100 mi.) My Uly starts pining...
It gets better, while riding day before yesterday the check engine light comes on. Code 53 rom failure; ECM replacement.
The good news, the ECM with the code 53 is from an '05 XB12s/r, that I was experimenting with, my Uly's original ECM is on it's way back from Daves' shop with a fresh '07 reflash. |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 07:12 pm: |
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AFV is still 100 after a conservative "learn" run. Timing is still about 3 degrees late to avoid any pinging. Version 2.81k-beta is buggy with my existing cable. I will double check the data when the new cable arrives. I had to re-install version "J" to acquire AFV and ECM-O2 data. |
Snowscum
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 12:01 am: |
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I rode the crap out of mine today and it got pretty hot. NO PING!. I think the combination of the regular oil and the intake leak fix seems to have solved the problem. It ran really good for the first hot day in a long time. To bad I got a F$#@ing ticket to boot! |
Red_chili
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 10:17 am: |
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Davo, sorry if I did not follow... but what did you do differently to keep the AFV at 100? |
Davo
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2006 - 01:33 pm: |
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By correcting the intake leak it caused the AFV to drop back to 100 from 105.3. I still get a little ping at the stock setting so I am about three degrees late to eliminate the pinging. Before replacing the seals, installing a right side scoop, and cooler weather I had to go 7.5 degrees late to eliminate the ping. I am going to look at remapping the ignition to my specs this winter if I can find the time and resources to do it. |
Davo
| | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 06:38 pm: |
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After a one hour ride in the mid 70's, you guessed it right................pinging. So now I am back to 7 degrees late to eliminate pinging. After my intake seal replacement, I was almost to the point where I thought I might have been wrong about the timing curve but I was just mistaken. There is a problem with the tuning of my bike. I welcome any dialog with the factory if they are willing to figure out where they messed up. Waiting for an anonymous reply and the out come of 44's pinging issue. Will someone please release information regarding the timing curve of the 07's? |
44mag2
| | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 11:34 pm: |
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I got my Uly back from the shop last week. The shop has the bike for about 1 month so they could work with Buell to find the cause of the ping.
After a month of testing, and close contact with Buell, the found that the compression was high. The compression was measured at 170. The spec in the Uly manual is 120. This would cause the pinging.
There was some carbon build up in the combustion chamber, but not too much. The cause of the high compression was not definitively determined, but it was thought that the carbon may have contributed to the high compression, but they were not sure.
The shop at Paradise Harley-Davidson rebuilt the engine with hopes that the pinging problem will be resolved. I also had an oil consumption problem that should now be solved.
So ... the evidence says that some of the Uly's (at least mine) might have higher that expected compression, which could cause a ping. The good thing is that the ping should go away as the engine wears, since the compression will decrease.
Note that both Paradise Harley Davidson in Portland Oregon and Buell Customer service were outstanding. They both went WAY beyond what ANY other motor company would do to solve my problem. I am a loyal Buell customer for life.
Now I need to break my engine in again, and I will let you know if the ping returns. |
Jim_sb
| | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 11:44 pm: |
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VERY interesting!!!
Here's a question for you Ulysses owners...
On the 1st start of the day with a fully charged battery does your Uly hesitate on the first compression stroke after you thumb the starter button?
Is that something that would happen if your compression is a bit higher than normal?
Mine hesitates, but always pulls through then starts.
Yes, I have the ping issue.
Just curious...
Jim in Santa Barbara |
Teeps
| | Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 10:37 am: |
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Jim sb,
My Ulysses starts in the same manner as you describe. After it's warmed up, though, it starts without that hesitation the rest of the day.
The '07 ECM flash did not change this characteristic either.
The last time I reset the TPS I noticed the ignition timing was +34Degs at startup. And as the engine warmed up it retarded to near zero when at operating temp. |
Alchemy
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 07:16 am: |
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I turn the key, switch the kill switch, wait for the fuel pump to bring pressure up and the light to got out and then hit the starter. The headlight goes out when the starter is engaged. This is in a heated basement so it is cool but not cold by any means. The first turn of the engine is hesitant but it does make it... so far. It has been enough hesitation on the first stroke that I have been wondering if the chassis electrical ground may need to be better.
I have some worry after it has been sitting outside in the cold air - sometimes in the 30s - but it has always started.
Uly has 2800 miles. I had been having some floating of the idle particularly in the cold but reducing the idle about 100 rpm has seemed to correct this - to my surprise . Thanks to whoever suggested this! |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 10:48 am: |
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44mag2,
"The compression was measured at 170. The spec in the Uly manual is 120. This would cause the pinging. "
You may have been misinformed or possibly misunderstood your mechanic.
The compression spec, verbatum from the service manual, for your Uly engine is as follows:
"Compression is normal if final readings are 120 psi or more."
A reading of 120 psi would be at the extreme low end of allowable compression and would indicate a compression ratio of around 8.2:1. Nominal compression for the 10:1 compression ratio Buell engine should be around 150 psi. A reading of 170 psi is not problematic.
Given the limited information, it seems likely to me that excessive oil in the combustion chamber resulting in carbon deposits which created hot-spots would seem to be the most likely root cause of the pinging issue in this case. So oil in the combustion chamber is the root cause, not elevated out of spec compression.
For instance, my Buell Cyclone tests at 180 psi compression; it does not ping, not even on the hottest of Summer days in Texas.
Interesting discussion.
It might be helpful if you could have your dealership contact Buell customer service to document this issue. |
