| Author | Message | ||
     44mag2 |
Pinging is bad for the engine. Period. If Buell chose to release pinging engines, it could have been for marketing reasons ... i.e., trade-off between cost and quality. I SERIOUSLY doubt that Buell made that choice, based on what Court has said. Subsequently, I choose to believe that Buell did not purposely release a pinging engine. BTW ... Intel's 1st Pentium chip had a floating point error that was discovered after millions of processors were sold. They GAINED respect and maintained marketplace by fessing up and fixing the problem by replacing all faulty chips even though 99% of applications would not have been affected by the floating point error. Making the customer happy is good business. I am confident that Buell will fix the problem. But nobody will convince me that a pinging engine is safe for the engine or expected under normal driving conditions. | ||
| Snowscum |
Well there better be a fix soon or next year its out of here. As far as the dealers are concerned they dont have a clue about this.That is freakin sad crap there. Even if I did put the race kit on by the dealer they shouldnt have to charge me $450 to fix it. Its their problem and not ours to fix. There is no freakin way that a pinging engine is good. It will eventually come apart and then their going to have to put a new motor in. Is that cost effective? Um No! It was rattling and pinging again today after work. I do not like the piston slap I hear ever since I put that sh%$$$ a$$ syn3 in there as well. Im not sure if every time I go in for the maintenance Im going to change the oil out myself. What a crock they wont put in other oils that obviously work better than theirs. Rant=off | ||
| Davo |
There is only one DIY fix unless you have an intake manifold leak. Once again, simply retard the timing until it stops. Index where the CPS is now and move it 1mm at a time counter-clockwise until the engine is tuned for your fuel, climate and riding style. There are several people that have done it. Take advantage of the condition that these bikes do not have fixed CPS sensors. It will not be long until you will not have this opportunity. | ||
| Snowscum |
I want to know why the dealers don't know this info? "It will not be long until you will not have this opportunity." I prefer not to be working on my $12k cycle I just bought. | ||
| Blake |
The new Sportsters have an O2 sensor for each cylinder. Seems like a very good idea to me. | ||
| Whodom |
The new Sportsters have an O2 sensor for each cylinder. Seems like a very good idea to me. Very interesting. That's what BMW finally did a couple of years back on their FI opposed twins to get them to run right. Each cylinder has a virtually complete independent FI control system. | ||
| Davo |
44mag2, Please keep me informed by pm as to what the factory has to say. Until then I am going silent on the issue. I understand the insecurity associated with a non-factory solution. It is very frustrating to me because solutions that are not factory solutions are not valid and if the factory had the solution then the problem would not exist to begin with. Davo out. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Maybe I'm just lucky but I haven't noticed this pinging problem on my bike. Maybe I just ride too sedately. I heard it once when I left a stop sign in a tall gear but that really was it and that was my fault. Oh yeah, and I don't use premium gas either. I use the ethanol blend with an octane of 90 or 91. (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on August 24, 2006) | ||
| Snowscum |
Davo I appreciate your input. Don't stop cause at least someone gives a crap. Electaglider: 91 is the highest around here. You run 89 regular unleaded? | ||
| Dave |
.... I need to retard my timing a bit more. Currently I just have a couple screws holding the timing plate cover in place until I get it right. I guess no one has explored colder plugs? DAve | ||
| Snowscum |
I haven't even looked for the plugs. Are they in there somewhere? Do you have to take a bunch of crap off to get to them? | ||
| Dr_greg |
Just retarded my timing 1mm. Going on a ride tomorrow...will report back on results. I'll take the tools to retard it more during the ride if I decide to. | ||
| Rubberdown |
"The new Sportsters have an O2 sensor for each cylinder. Seems like a very good idea to me. Very interesting. That's what BMW finally did a couple of years back on their FI opposed twins to get them to run right. Each cylinder has a virtually complete independent FI control system." It works very well too. They also utilize a knock sensor that allows a 12:1 compression without ping regardless of fuel quality or octane. | ||
| Dave |
Knock sensors - and exactly what do they do to the timing when knock is sensed?  We've had all kinda knock sensors report the occurrence.... What should they do to the timing Davo? DAve | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Snowscum, I tried low octane regular once by mistake and after using up most of it I mixed it up with high octane premium on the following fill-up. I laid off the throttle while under the influence of regular. I believe the Gasohol is 91 octane and it seems to work for me. I really don't beat my ULY. I ride it briskly but have nothing to prove. I firmly believe (from experience) that if you ride like a maniac that the law of averages will soon add you to the list. Every time I get on one of my bikes I think about what will happen if I don't pay attention and I ride most everyday and am still here. | ||
| Davo |
A knock sensor is a piezo sensor (crystal driven semiconductor) that is tuned to detect specific frequencies which are the same frequencies as knocking/pinging. When the crystal vibrates due to a frequency emitted by pinging, the piezo sensor emits an electrical signal or pulse to the ECM and the ECM retards the timing, opens an EGR (exhaust gas recirculation (on cars)) valve, and/or richen up the air fuel mixture. I speculate that motorcycles would be limited to door number 1, and yes I know I said I was going to remain silent, retard the timing. p.s. The other type of knock sensor is biological. (Message edited by davo on August 25, 2006) (Message edited by davo on August 25, 2006) | ||
| 44mag2 |
Davo, I will keep you informed ... everybody else too. BTW ... I heard second hand through the dealer that the Factory thinks that the ethanol is the culprit ... that fuel sometimes has much more ethanol than advertised. Mine gas station claims NO ETHANOL ... but it still pings. My brothers airplane is grounded because of a pre-ignition problem (i.e., pinging) caused by a slight intake leak. The FAA inspector is afraid he will severely damage his engine if he flys without fixing the problem. The engine is a Lycoming 320 ... an air cooled engine very similar to the Buell engine, except 4 cylinders and magneto based ignition. For those who think pinging is OK for an engine... the FAA disagrees. BMW's don't ping huh??? HMMMMM | ||
| 44mag2 |
Professor Davo - don't stop ... we need you! | ||
| Dgunther |
BMWs may not ping, but they sure did (do? - not so sure about the R1200 engine) surge as the ECM excessively leans out the fuel mixture. Meticulous valve lash adjustments and frequent throttle body synchronization can keep it to a minimum, but it is always still there. BMW denied the existence of a surging for about 6 years, then released a twin plug head that kinda-sorta fixed the problem under the guise of improved emissions. At least Buell appears to be listening to riders and not sticking their heads in the sand, refusing to even acknowledge that there is an issue. (Message edited by dgunther on August 26, 2006) | ||
| Rubberdown |
Dgunther, yeah, the new generation hexhead is an entirely different beast. Mine has been awesome as were my XB's. | ||
| Dr_greg |
I've just about had it with the pinging. I retarded timing 1 mm and it still pings. So on my ride today at a gas stop I retarded it 2 mm. No real difference except now it feels a little sluggish at low revs (<3K rpm). So am I really hearing pinging? I think so, but the blasted engine is so noisy that it's hard to tell. If it is really pinging, mine pings almost constantly at part-throttle anywhere near 3K rpm. Seems less at higher throttle settings, interestingly. Just revving it in the garage it sounds like there's a more or less constant sharp "pinging-like" sound from 2500 - 3500 rpm, no matter what the timing. Maybe it's valve noise, but man, no other bike I've owned has knocked and rattled like this 1203cc beast. Maybe I oughta fit a loud pipe after all just to cover it up. This is exactly the same engine as in all the Buell "12" bikes, right? So what's happened with the others? I intend to call customer service on Monday. And to add insult to injury a new GS blew by me in the mountains like I was standing still...hmmm. Retarded indeed. | ||
| Dr_greg |
I should probably learn to search these forums better. Over on the XBoard there was a discussion of engine noises, and a regular "pinging" sound from 2700 rpm up at very light throttle (just what I hear) is "valve train chatter." From Davo: "If you ride at about 2700 rpm and let the engine just float along with very little throttle or load you will hear valve train chatter." Now that's what I'm hearing. Sorry for the previous post. Like I said, SEARCH first next time. Quite a relief. I had assumed hydraulic lifters were, er, quiet. I'm still ticked off about the GS, however... | ||
| Dgunther |
Dr_greg, don't worry too much about the GS, you'll pass him in a few miles when his final drive eats itself or his clutch splines strip.  | ||
| Davo |
Dr. greg, When that bike starts to ping there will be no confusing it. The valve train chatter is normal and is more prevalent under light or no load. It is very systematic and predictable. Pinging sounds very similar a loud re-acurring arcing. Valve train noise comes out of the engine and pinging is a very abstract and chaotic clanking and cracking that surrounds the engine. On American Bikes pinging is self evident just like the Declaration of Independence. | ||
| Davo |
Forgot, The cam lobe profiles on these roller cams are so aggressive that instead of the lifter sliding down off the lobe it is tossed over the edge. The oil in the hydraulic lifter does what it can to absorb the valve lash but there is a lot of lash. That is why the engine gets very noisy when extremely hot or even when it is warm and contains synthetic oil. | ||
| Blake |
"On American Bikes pinging is self evident just like the Declaration of Independence." I love it! But wait a minute, even the Declaration of Independence isn't meaningful to some folks. Never mind. Politics sucks. What are "roller cams"?  | ||
| Davo |
A cam that is designed to be use with roller lifters. The lobes are more like bumps than ramps. Solid or non-roller lifters need a ramp with a less aggressive lift rate and a fatter base diameter. The geometry of the roller lifter permits the use of a cam with a much smaller base diameter. The lifter is not necessarily higher it is that the base is lower. This type of valve train, with roller lifters, long push rods, sturdy rockers for OHV, a aluminum case without sound dampening water jackets create a lot of noise! This is one reason that a knock sensor is tricky because they are also tricked by frequencies emitted by tall valve trains. | ||
| Davo |
As for the D of I, the great thing about the document regardless of the politic is that it stresses that the real issue is that one must seek to obtain a decent respect to the opinions of others by declaring the causes ( of conflict or issue) prior to the separation. The document, in principle, is one of the most near perfect secular documents ever published by mankind. (I speculate) Now you guys can get your topic back. I am sorry for the tangent....If the colonists had gone to war w/o the D of I then they would have been pre-detonating....sorry i couldn't help it. (Message edited by davo on August 26, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
A roller cam profile will induce the same valvetrain accelerations as cams designed for shim type cam followers would. So I don't see your point. The shim cam would need to be larger diameter, I agree, but the resulting effect upon the upstream valvetrain is identical, same accelerations, same total lift, same dynamics. Or am I missing something? The Declaration of Independence, "Secular"? I couldn't disagree more strongly. Why? Please see therein the vitally pertinent references to " God", "Creator" and "divine Providence." Secular? Without our "Creator" there would be no justification for our nation's claim to "certain unalienable Rights." Without our "Creator" the justification for this great nation and our cherrished "unalienable rights" go straight down the toilet. It seems to me. But this is about cams and pinging. And I disagree with you on that point to. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) Which is all good and fun. Please rebutt and explain in order to show where I am confused. I really enjoy this kind of thoughtful discussion. But I do agree with you that some folks new to the American Sport Bike experience mistake the normal caucaphony of engine mechanicals for "pinging." Another expert on the American Sport Bike topic coined a term, "fin ring", that I find has potention in the future anals of Buell tech. Larger fins and their propensity to propogate resonant sounds may be adding to the mechanical caucophony and faux pinging concerns. With a stock muffler, problematic predetonation in a Buell is something that will make you sit up and take immediate notice, like HEY!... Who put the gravel in my engine! Please forgive my mis-spellings. I like to call it "beer grammar." But in fact, I'm just a horrible speller and too lazy to fix all the yellow in this post.  | ||
| Davo |
Blake, “A roller cam profile will induce the same valvetrain accelerations as cams designed for shim type cam followers would. So I don't see your point. The shim cam would need to be larger diameter, I agree, but the resulting effect upon the upstream valvetrain is identical, same accelerations, same total lift, same dynamics. Or am I missing something?” I think you have made a point here. My description of the roller cam was developed in order to explain the distinctive noise emitted by a HD roller cam. The ramp to lobe base relationship is unique due to the multi-directional forces of a roller lifter as compared to a flat based lifter. The surface of the flat based lifter instead of semi spherical as relative to the cam is two dimensional. I do not argue that the resulting effect upon the upstream valve train is (or may be) identical. My point is that roller cams have different profiles in order to achieve a similar resulting effect upstream. Those differing profiles make noise on the drop side of the lobe/ramp. Your point regarding my error in labeling the D of I as being secular is well stated. I base my statement on your own evidence that there were many references to divinity and not one specific reference. Also, that the inspiration of the author has little to do with the adoption of such a document by future generations. The other point that I wish to make is the D of I was not written to the Colonists or King George. It was not even written in first person. The D of I was written in third person for third person, “to a candid World”. One will never achieve the decent respect to the opinions of others by rebelling against one theocracy in order to create a new one. Respectfully and humbly Davo |
