| Author | Message | ||
     Davo |
44 mag, As you know the torque specs are very delicate and the two flat headed anchor screws have a thread that the phillips plate screw threads into. If you over do the phillips screws then you take load off of the base of the flat head bolts and the cps plate. | ||
| Javadog |
Davo mentioned the extreme retard Mark. I work with that guy- what an idiot! | ||
| Rubberdown |
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| Xbimmer |
Well I think my bike definitely has a timing problem, even though I just talked to a service tech at my dealer and he said he hadn't heard of a Ulysses timing problem. Yesterday and today both hot, pinging on hills, pinging on takeoff if I didn't slip the clutch enough, pinging on 5th gear rollons at fwy speeds. I use 76/Shell/Chevron 91 exclusively. Until I gassed up today with $6/gallon 100 octane just to see what would happen. Goodbye ping, for the most part. I had to work hard to get it to ping. I lugged it down to 1500 rpm in 3rd a few times then opened it up, shook a bunch but no ping. From a couple of stops I let out the clutch much quicker at idle, got only a couple of pings and none of the normal theatrics I get if I don't slip the clutch while using 91 octane. Rolled it on hard going up a steep set of turns near my home, in 3rd gear just a tink and then smooth acceleration. It would seem to me that my bike has a timing problem that I don't intend to fix with $6 gas. Problem is my dealer can't get me in to check it for two weeks and I'm heading for the hills in one. I remember many years ago while heading for a BMW National Rally in Missoula, riding along the Snake River in 100 deg heat, airhead Beemers (no K-bikes back then!) pinging and rattling all around me. IIRC, there WAS no premium gas in those parts of ID back then. My bike was fine, I had just dual-plugged the heads and was able to retard the timing to guess what? 3 deg, what a coincidence! Maybe if I kick and scream they'll fit me in to take a look, it's a great dealer IMO. | ||
| Davo |
Xbimmer, I think I have found the problem. I am expecting a phone call that might confirm or throw a wrench into my solution. Until then if you have to ride I would check for a intake leak first by removing the side plates/scoops and doing a visual or try the propane test (carefully). If there is no intake leak I would start by indexing the cps and moving it counterclockwise about 1mm at a time and go for a ride. I had to go 2.5mm to fix mine. FYI a .040 spark plug wire gapping gauge is equal to 1.02 mm or 3 degrees of spark timing. Be careful drilling the rivets out. Just take the tops off and do not over tighten anything!!! Make sure you index your factory location with a fine dental style pick. It is kind of like dropping breadcrumbs as you enter the forest. Good luck! Oh, as for the tech not being aware of the timing problem is the problem. I speculate the factory procedure might be wrong. (Message edited by davo on June 24, 2006) (Message edited by davo on June 24, 2006) (Message edited by davo on June 24, 2006) | ||
| Xbimmer |
Thanks, Davo, I've been following this thread for a few days now. My bike is only a month old, 2100 miles. Is it possible to have an intake leak at its young age? My parts catalog finally came in today so now I can familiarize myself with every washer in the bike, I LOVE that kind of reading! Now that I can see what's under that cover it doesn't look too intimidating. Not nearly as difficult as the Dyna III I installed in my BMW, which thankfully after a lot of time spent getting the dual pickups syncd has performed well for over 20 yrs! Question: Once the rivets are removed, do I re-rivet, or can the cover be screwed on? And will my adjustments void my warranty...? I see you have some new info coming in, I don't plan to work on this until next weekend before my trip. I'm keeping a close eye on this thread, and I'm sure all of us "pingers" out here appreciate your efforts! Man I love enthusiast's forums!  | ||
| Bloochdog |
is pinging and spark knock the same? | ||
| Bloochdog |
I fear that just adding gas to the tank voids warranty.... just kidding big brother ... please don't spank me | ||
| 44mag |
I talked to Buell customer service. They said that if I adjust the timing I will not void the warranty unless I mess it up so bad that it breaks something. The dealer retarded my timing twice to get rid of the pinging, which re-occured after about 1500 miles after the timing was last retarded. When I checked it using Davo's procedure it was advanced again after about 1500 miles. It seems that the vibrations might have moved the timing plate because I spoke with the guy who adjusted the timing and he is confident that it was retarded. Seems like the uly might have a "wandering timing problem". | ||
| Davo |
xbimmer, You can put new Harley Rivets back in the place of the stock ones. They are mill aluminum finish so they are going to know you have been in there. As for the warranty, I expect they would find a reason to void it if they can't fix it. You can tap the threads on the zinc inner cover and replace the rivets with screws. On my XL I have a module with 10 different ignition curves and a micro switch in the cone. I don't even have a cover over it and I just screw the inner cover on if it rains and put duct tape over the rivet holes. If you go into the cone you can just replace the zinc inner plate with the phillips screws until you nail down the adjustment. I too have a parts catalog there is a good picture on page 26. If you drop me a PM with an email address I will send you a picture of the orientation of part 32473-02/Cup trigger rotor as it relates to true ignition TDC of the #1 cylinder. The picture is too big to post on BadWeb. Good luck and tread lightly. As you have read I am waiting on some feed back regarding my data. I have my bike set up as I have described earlier in this thread and I haven't toasted it yet. I will keep you informed as soon as I am certain. | ||
| Bloochdog |
has the adjustment removed the spark knock davo? | ||
| Davo |
I did not address the intake man. leak question from xbimmer. It is a qualifier I had to throw into the solution. Pinging, spark knock, detonation, pre-ignition, death knock, tin canning and dieseling are all the same condition. There is only two things that cause it directly: excessive heat and/or too much advance. Low octane fuel creates the heat element. Air leaking into the intake will create a great deal of heat. If you eliminate the air leak and you are using a fuel rated for the engine then there is only one solution, retard the timing. If the bike had a knock sensor or some type of EGR they would be used to reduce heat and eliminate pre-ignition but these bikes have neither. The draw back to timing being over retarded is loss of power, poor fuel mileage, and a portion of the heat being moved down stream into the exhaust valve and the pipe. I am watch my pipe temps. I am getting some orange pipe at prolonged idle but the temps seem acceptable to me. It is my opinion that over retarding the engine is ten times less damaging than over advance. | ||
| Bloochdog |
would wrapping the headers have any ill effects? | ||
| Davo |
So far 110%. I can't make it knock. I wait for the fan to just turn on and then load it at less than 2000 which is like throwing a hand grenade in the engine and I can't make it knock. Two weeks ago at 3 degrees late according to the Buell set up my bike would start to knock when I would moderately roll on the throttle while running down the road at 65-70 MPH after being in the wind for hours. The problem is that all EFI engines have a crank position sensor that is fixed and there is no question as to where it is. These ULy's utilize what was a timing module area running off a cam shaft and the plate is adjustable. So now you have an ECM making advance changes relevant to a non fixed point of reference. I would be like me telling you to take a bearing on a distant star and not tell you which one. Now for the good news, Once I can tell you the name of the star we are out of the woods because we can move the plate w/o software! | ||
| Davo |
I would not wrap them at this point. We have enough variables to sort out for the time being. Also the front pipe is the one that is going orange at idle unless the fan is not running. There for if the bike is moving and the fan is on both pipes are in clean cool air and are not going orange. I got my bike hot and let it idle. Both pipes went orange then the fan came on the back pipe cooled off and I put a fan in front of the bike to simulate clean air and the front pipe cooled as well. My orange pipe condition is still more that 100 degrees cooler than my rear crossover pipe on my twin cam. | ||
| Davo |
Check out the XB Thread. It seems our XB neighbors got a little pinging thing going on. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/208188.html?1151207883 | ||
| Xbimmer |
Davo, yep page 26 settled my concerns, and since I can't even see my spark plugs page 26 showed me what you had to deal with regarding your timing light hookup. Those are short leads, all kinds of fun! Regarding the rivets, seems to be a non-issue. If Buell's dealers are unaware of an inherent manufacturing problem and the solutions are left to us Beta-testers out here, then I would think Big Brother would give a nod and a pass. Could be I'm thinking out of ignorance though, right Bloochdog?  | ||
| 44mag |
Before adjustment per Davo's method and 1500 miles after the dealer retarded the timing shows that the timing is slightly advanced.  After timing adjustment showing the timing is slightly retarded (~0.5 to 1mm rotation CCW) - I have not test drove it yet due to my stripped timing plug problem.  | ||
| Davo |
agreed there is an absence of malice regarding this issue. The only thing I can't explain is why there are some that are not pining at all. Unless they are the bikes with loader pipes and are unaware of the pinging but it is hard to believe they would not have heard pinging like mine. It could be that there is so much randomness that there are some that are coming out of the box late as well as early. I sticking with my timing light. It has not lied to me yet! Issues awaiting confirmation: 1. VDSTS ignition numbers for #1 spark are posted on the screen as degrees in advance of TDC of the #1 cylinder. 2. The spark advance at 3-7% TPS @ 1500 or less is ZERO or real close to ZERO (1-2 degrees) with the stock ECM. 3. Vertical mark on flywheel is THE true TDC mark. If all of the above are "yes" then get out your timing light, a plastic timing plug, and a spark plug wire extension and go straight up with the mark. Then you will be where I am. If the answer to any one is no then I'm toast. | ||
| Buellistic |
Timing mark just coming into the timing plug hole !!! DO NOT SAY THIS IS TOO ADVANCED, AS "i" HAVE HAD MY TIMING SET THIS WAY AS SOON AS MY 97S3T WAS BROKEN IN !!! Have 90K plus miles on it ... Replace pop rivets with SCREW, self tapping PN 2662W !!! In BUELLing LaFayette | ||
| Davo |
I was over on the XB side and those Down Under guys can get some pretty hot fuel! If we had their gas we wouldn't be having this debate. Great pictures 44mag. My mark is all the way to the right and not visible when looking straight on. From your camera angle would be able to see it. After a plug read this morning, a little more color on the insulator and trace carbon build up on the threads. There is NO aluminum micro marbles on the insulator!! I am getting cooler richer and there is NO aluminum micro marbles on the insulator!!! Unlike a carb, when you reduce intake man. vac by retarding the timing the venturi effect is moot and the ECM keeps pumping it in unless there is a MAP sensor that tells it otherwise and there is no MAP sensor. This beast waits for a O2 calculation then it adjusts, but only at closed loop. Idle is open and that is why I am getting a cooler and richer plug. Now you may see some writing on the wall, as to why the factory may feel uncomfortable about recommending a significant timing change. There is always a bigger brother! As I stated before, if I am wrong I will be the first to toast. | ||
| Davo |
Buellistic, If you are using a light then I am with you. If you are using "fuel pump on" or cps voltage to find the spot then I think you might be looking at another van on the trigger rotor. There are six not just two. Go around again 180 on the cam, 360 on the crank, and see if it is different. Please let me know which of the above procedures you are using. Thanks for the information!! | ||
| Buellistic |
Davo: Have a MODULE with a LED(static timing) ... Remember this is a 97S3T with a CARB. !!! Only run GULF HIGH TEST GAS !!! | ||
| Davo |
Buellistic, Thanks again for the getting back with me. The timing code that we are trying to crack for the xb12x is a completely different animal wrapped in the same clothing. There is no module. There is only a cps in the cone which is an input sensor for the ECM under the seat. There is no LED but I wish there was an equivalent. In fact, we are actually using the electric fuel pump as our mock LED. The factory procedure as I understand it is the equivalent of using a DVOM on the cps lead at the ECM to measure 5+ volts as the indicator for static timing TDC. I do not know the static timing procedure for the 97S3T but it sounds very much like an XL in which case you are on the money!! Great to hear that you have 90K of trouble free ignition. I am jealous. | ||
| Davo |
I have been watching the xb forum and Heyfred said it best. When I asked: How far did you retard timing? I did it by trial and error. Left the cover off ignition and kept retarding till pinging went away. That is the solution if you do not have a intake man. leak. Retarding the timing is only a band aid if the intake is leaking. For the brave hearted, hook up a VDSTS let the engine idle and wait for zero or 1 BTDC on #1 spark on the lap top (engine temps need to be 275 or hotter to get low advance numbers on VDSTS). Index the CPS before you move it!!! Then set the crank TDC mark straight up using a basic non-adjustable inductive timing light by moving the CPS. Get a window plug and some goggles and fix it for good. The "retard till it stops pinging" method will get you right on the edge of ping which is the best way to tune for power and economy. After weeks of discussion, I have not received any information that would even begin to persuade me that retarding the timing is not the solution to pinging on the Uly. Thanks for everyones input! Have a great week! | ||
| Davo |
A note regarding my previous post. The Uly has a factory timing procedure. It does not have a factory timing specification. The factory tells us how to time it but not where to time it. I know that there must be some factory people watching these forums. It is inexcusable that we do not have an initial timing specification to verify and set up our bikes. At idle and at normal operating temperature (338 F or better)What is the dynamic timing specification BTDC????? The ECM makes timing advance changes and if does not advance the timing at all then where would the TDC mark be under the above conditions???????? They have told us to tighten our oil plug to a unacceptably high and damaging torque value. They know our bikes are falling over because of sidestand problems. They know SOME of us are having timing issues. I want to know why we do not get some feed back. We are the customers. I would think that the factory would treat sites like this one as a valuable resource for PR and R&D. If I get rid of my Uly it will be due to the people at the factory and not the bike itself. Enough said, I got to go cool off. Have a great 4th weekend everybody!! | ||
| Destroy |
I want to know why we do not get some feed back. We are the customers. I would think that the factory would treat sites like this one as a valuable resource for PR and R&D. I also would like to know this. If I was a company owner, I would like to be immediately and fully in touch with those that are interested in and care about my product; it just makes good business sense. | ||
| Buellistic |
Davo & Destroy: When you buy a BUELL you are basicly ON YOUR OWN !!! YOU MUST LEARN TO IMPROVISE AND TO BE A "MECHANIC" !!! | ||
| Davo |
Maybe you can answer my question then. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Let's see, I had to improvise just to buy my Uly, and I've been doing virtually all the work that can be done without presses and lathes on all my and my kids' vehicles for thirty years plus, so I guess I'm a mechanic... and I'd certainly be on my own if I were changing my oil late one night and the bike fell over on me when the stand snapped... Hey I'm a Buell owner! Seriously, I won't pass any judgement either for or against the factory, I would like to have a more open channel though. My dealer and none of the few regional dealers have heard anything about snapping sidestand parts, or timing problems, my bike was pronounced as OK after the 1000k after I requested a timing check. In this recent 90 deg plus heat I don't even need a hill or headwind to initiate rattling with a rollon. I was told to run higher rpm's well if I wanted a multi I would have bought a multi. I've got a lot of faith in Buell and I believe in their product. Aside from their accessories delivery which sucks they produce a unique and quality product, especially from a small manufacturer. As far as the argument on a sidestand thread that new-model production might be inhibiting a real fix for the problem, I question that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Buell a few years ago halt all production to focus on a serious recall? (Message edited by xbimmer on June 30, 2006) |
