| Author | Message | ||
     44mag |
Davo, In a previous post, you mentioned that you have a procedure to determine the factory timing. Would you please post? The HD dealer just retarded my timing to help solve the pinging problem. If It does not work, I want to try to measure and retard it myself. | ||
| Gowindward |
This may help http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/127986.html | ||
| Davo |
44mag, I used a similar procedure as the above link, but I simply listened for the fuel pump. It helps to get someone to assist you with the procedure. I put the bike in 5th and turned on the key and the ignition on and SLOWLY pushed the bike and as soon as the pump turned on with the mark visible I was at TDC. The mark should be straight up for the factory setting. Be careful not to fire the bike up by "push starting" it too quickly. My mark was a little early and I was pinging under load on hot days so I retarded the timing 3 degrees. This is how I measured it: 1. The inner diameter of the timing cone is 78mm 2. That means the circumference is 244.92 (78*3.14) 3. There are two rotations of the crank shaft for every cam shaft rotation and the timing rotor is driven off of a cam shaft. 4. That means there are 720 degrees of crank shaft rotation for one cam shaft rotation. 5. 244.92 mm / 720 = 0.3402 mm 6. If you move the timing plate 1mm counter clockwise then you retard the engine aprx. 3 degrees.(3*0.3402mm=1.0206 mm) 7. Before you move the timing plate be sure to take a super fine pick (dental style pick) and scratch a mark on the outer most border of the timing plate and scratch the same spot on the inner cone so that when you move the plate you can make sure the marks are exactly 1mm apart. I used a piece of mechanical pencil lead that was 1mm in diameter as a measuring device. You can also use the marks to go back to your original setting as well. | ||
| 44mag |
Thanks! I appreciate all the help! | ||
| 44mag |
My timing was advanced from the factory. I set to to spec, and the pinging got much better, but it was still there on hills. Subsequently, I retarded the timing an additional 3 degrees (per Davo's calculations, 1mm=~ 3 degrees) and the pinging is gone! | ||
| Davo |
Glad to hear it! | ||
| Bearly |
What kind of Fuel are people using? Does using higher flash point fuel help (higher Octane)? | ||
| Davo |
93 octane and I was using HD fuel additive to reduce spark knock prior to retarding the timing. | ||
| Bearly |
Thanks Davo, I'll make sure I stick with 93. | ||
| Davo |
44mag, Did you ever pull the timing plug and do a visual on your mark? There is really no reason other than to get a mental picture of where the mark is for future reference. Mine is just a shade past TDC. I was early and retarded 3 degrees and so I am about 2 degrees late now. I am trying to derive a method to document where is the preferred/ no ping timing should be. I am having a problem getting the inductive hook up on the timing light around the plug wire. I was able to determine that the Uly at hot idle with a stock ECM has a front plug advance of THREE degrees. That means if I can get a light t to work on it then the mark should be straight up (TDC)at the speculated best mark of 3 degrees retarded from the stock/ ping timing. I will keep you posted. It would be nice if we could tell people exactly what the preferred timing is though a 3 degree retard seems to work for pinging bikes. | ||
| 44mag |
Davo, I am planning on pulling the timing plug for a visual. However, I will probably wait for a rainy weekend. | ||
| 44mag |
Davo, I know that the timing was advanced from the factory ~ 3 degrees. The tech who originally reset the timing to spec said he had to rotate the timing disk ~ 1mm to pull it into factory spec. I then backed it off an additional ~1mm to stop the pinging. So I retarded the timing a total of 6 degrees (eye-balling estimate). | ||
| Davo |
Thanks for the info. | ||
| Jcbikes |
How do you pull the timing plug? do you have to drill it out? Then what do you replace it with? Have never done this and was wanting to check mine because of the pinging too. | ||
| Davo |
NO! it is a large hex head bolt. I use the following combination to remove mine: 3/8 hex head (allen wrench) 3/8" socket be careful not to scratch your case or pipes. I reduce down to 1/4" drive then put a 6" extension then adapt back up to 3/8" at the socket. It is on the right side of the engine at the base and between the cylinders. Do not let any trash get in the window! There is only a slash mark. There are no numbers. TDC is straight up. I am a little late (2-3 degrees ATDC)to reduce pre-ignition. The fuel pump cycles several times (6)per camshaft rotation. One of those times is TDC. Be careful get some help to watch the mark. I go veeerrrry slow in 5th gear and only read on the approach (forward). As soon as the pump cycles I put on the hand brake and do not move anything while my assistant watches the orientation of the mark. If I miss it, I go back and re-approach. Good luck. If you go too quick you will jump start the bike!!! Oh yeah and re-torque the timing plug to 120-108 in./lbs. That is INCH LBS.!! It is NOT VERY TIGHT at all. Only 10 ft./lbs.!!! (Message edited by davo on May 30, 2006) | ||
| Davo |
I am looking for some information to assist in static timing. I would like to know what the precise diameter of the fly wheel inside the crank case. I would like to make a timing scale. Thanks! | ||
| Davo |
44mag and others interested, FYI, I am at 5K I changed oil again and changed the plugs for the third time and the plugs looked like a "perfect burn"! I am getting about 50 mpg but I am not riding very conservatively. There appears to be no negative consequences to retarding the timing (3 degrees). An occasional ping during meltdown traffic conditions in very hot weather. After about a minute of good air no problems! I have found that there is a difference between hot head temperatures and hot cylinder temperatures. During long idling in traffic the head and the cylinders both get very hot. When only the head temperatures are hot under way there is not adverse combustion issues (pinging). The bike has been designed to maintain relatively hot head temperatures and the cylinders stay relatively cool due to the open architecture. I am still trying to locate a small digital or analog thermometer that scales from 0-5 volts. It could be used as a thermometer. | ||
| Davo |
FYI, a .040 spark plug wire type gapping tool is exactly 3 degrees as measured where the outside most point on the cam syc. sensor plate touches the inside diameter of the timing cone. The TDC mark will be 2/3 of the way from 12 o'clock (straight up) to the point were the mark leaves the timing window. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
We check the timing on every "Buell PDI" we do, but my "ULY" still had a ping in closed loop. I am working on the timing tables in Direct Link and looking at the rear cylinder offset. My bike has now been tuned with a Micron and American Sport Bike Open Airbox but had the problem before. I have made the first change and did a 260 mile two up ride with no pinging, but will continue to watch it. ... Terry | ||
| Davo |
Well I finally got the timing light on the Uly. It was a real pain. I had to put and extension on the front plug wire in order to get the inductive hook up on it. I used a plastic timing window plug for an XL. I watched the front plug numbers on the VDSTS until hey dropped to 1 BTC then I put the crank mark straight up. That put me 1 degree late and guess what? The factory had me AT LEAST 6 degrees advanced out of the box! The moral of the story is to retard the timing until the pinging goes away. I will check the light to the ECM output voltage method soon. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Science is fun. | ||
| Davo |
After setting my dynamic timing using a timing light I then checked the timing using the input pin (pin 3 on the gray ECM connector)from the cam position sensor. The mark was just past (late)the timing window at 5 volts. There is definitely something wrong with the static timing procedure "OR" there are some bad advance numbers coming off the VDSTS. I speculate it is the factory procedure that is in error. The first reason is that it would be unwise to use TDC for static timing with the intentions of advancing it only. There are times that the ignition would have to be retarded ie. at the rev limit. If the system is set up at TDC then the ECM would not be able to retard the ignition because it does not have a late point of reference. In other words the ECM would be required to retard the timing which would require a delay instead of an advance. It seems unreasonable that the software writers would not have used the extreme retard mark as the point of reference for the ECM. If this was the case the ECM would be required to change the timing and either add or subtract the difference from the point of reference. If I wrote the program I would have used the latest point of reference so that I could use the same sign "+" or "-" instead of "+" and "-" in the advance formula. Secondly the faulty procedure may explain why there are a significant number of Uly's with pre-ignition issues. In conclusion, something is wrong because setting 5 volts on the CPS as the TDC (straight up) mark will result in timing with an excess of 6 degrees in advance....."ping city" | ||
| 44mag |
Davo - can you post a picture of where your timing mark is in your window? I will attempt to adjust mine to the same point. | ||
| 44mag |
I am contacting customer service about the pinging ... I am going to ask if there is a factory solution to this problem. I am also going to request a conversation with an engineer about the right side scoop and the rational behind the current cooling solution. Maybe if the bike ran cooler, it would not ping. | ||
| 44mag |
What are the consequences of retarding the timing too much? | ||
| Dave |
My experience... Retarded timing results in generally bogging/poor performance... I retarded mine just a hair due to pinging. One hash mark. I need to take it out with some WFO roll ons and see how she does. DAve | ||
| Davo |
I had no loss in performance in fact it is better now! The bike spins up better and it takes longer for the fan to come on. I tested it on a loop that I was making checking the right side cover issue. After changing the timing at my half way point the fan wasn't even on yet and it was ALWAYS on before. I am also getting the same garage arrival temps of 397-401. I put the right side scoop back on and I can't make it ping!! There is a problem with the factory procedure. Unless I am getting bad advance readings from the VDSTS then the factory procedure is WRONG! With a non-adjustable advance/plain jane timing light, with the mark straight up at idle when the VDSTS shows 1 degree of advance it retards the motor about 7+ degrees from the factory static timing procedure. When the fuel pump comes on and the cps shows 5 volts it is aprx. 7 BTDC NOT TDC!!! The only thing I have noticed is my front pipe will glow more at extended idle. My front pipe temps are still 100+ degrees cooler that the rear pipe on my Ultra Classic! 44 mag, I will try to get another picture asap. My original pictures are of the CPS vanes orientation to demonstrate TDC. I found pulling the front plug works best for static timing because you have a "soft" approach to TDC of #1. The TDC mark is just past the right edge (just visible) of the window at "fuel pump on". Another way is to set up TDC of #1 then turn the CPS 5-6 mm counter clockwise then slowly clockwise until "fuel pump on" then go 2.5mm back counterclockwise and your there. Or keep moving 1mm at a time counter clockwise until you are in the no ping zone. FYI "Fuel pump on" and "CPS output at 5+ Volts" are at the same exact time. I would like for the factory to chime in on this one because something is WRONG! This is why these things are pinging! A guy posted the other day that a demo was pinging. Something is WRONG! The next thing I am going to do is verify the TDC mark on the crank. It will be a little tough due to the spark plug location. I good source has warned me about cranks with un-true TDC marks from HD. | ||
| Chadhargis |
Where do we get to the part where the Space Shuttle launches?? Mine doesn't ping, and I'm thankful for that because setting the timing looks like a huge pain in the buttocks. | ||
| 44mag |
The timing adjustment is very sensitive. I wonder if the vibrations make the timing drift over time. 1mm of rotation on the adjustment wheel makes a big difference in where the mark appears in the timing window. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Sounds like Buell should look at getting a license from BMW to use their knock sensor system that's on the R series hexheads. It is fantastic. |
